Talk:Lombard language

Lombard language v Lombard dialects

Moved from "Lombard language" as the article stated itself that Lombard is a set of interrelated dialects, not a single language. --Orzetto 10:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And what language isn't? Anyway, I really neither second nor oppose the move, I'm not sure what classification would be best. LjL 11:22, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, it is a good thing that engineers are interested in language issues (I was an electronic engineer myself, befor becoming a linguist :-) ). But it woudn't be a bad idea to leave the burden of writing articles about linguistics to those who actually have a formal schooling in linguistics as a part of their curriculum... :-)

It surely would not be a bad idea at all - actually, it would be the only reasonable thing to do - for a paper encyclopedia. Wikipedia, however (at least as far as I understand its spirit), allows and encourages everyone to write and edit articles about topics they're interested about. Why should I wait for a linguist to write the article for Milanese, when I can roll my own? This works on Wikipedia (in contrast to a paper encyclopedia) because any linguist who later reads the article can correct anything they find wrong, remove anything that is irrelevant, and add anything that is relevant.

Ok, but what about the information contained in the article _before_ it has been discovered and revised by a linguist? This is actually a problem with any free encyclopedia. JørgenGB 15:52, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It is a problem with any free encyclopedia. But I think that Wikipedia thinks that the advantages outweigh the problems! Anyway, there is also the system of tags, which allows putting things like "This article needs to be revised by a specialist" (I don't really know if this particular tag exists, and if it does, it's my fault that I haven't used it); this way, an index of articles needing revision can be (automatically) created. You see, it's not that bad :-)

Oh, and, let's be very honest, how many articles on real paper encyclopedias are actually written by experts? :-\ LjL 14:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Since you've contributed to Milanese, please ask yourself: if I hadn't created the original "Milanese" article to begin with, would you have done it?

I was planning to do it, yes, and your article gave me the right motivation :-) JørgenGB 15:58, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I created the original article. You read it. You found errors. You corrected them, and expanded the article. Would the article exist at all, right now, if this process didn't happen? Perhaps it would, but I'm sure you understand that, even if I might be wrong in this particular case, this kind of process is often very useful on Wikipedia.

I agree with you on this point. JørgenGB 15:52, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

LjL 21:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Modern linguists say that a language can also be "a set of interrelated dialects". Speaking of "Lombard language" does neither imply that there is only one single variety of Lombard, nor that there is a Lombard written standard.

For a modern linguist "dialect" and "language" are not very precise terms at all. That is why we prefer to use the neutral term "[language] variety".

The main problem when classifying a language is that

1. we are trying to force into a 1- or 2-dimensional chart a reality with far more dimensions, I would say a matrix with lots of different variables;

2. we are trying to force into a discrete, "digital" description a reality which is in its own nature continuous, "analogic".

Take the example of (standard, high) German, Swiss German and Dutch. Swiss German varieties are neither more "German" nor closer to German than Dutch varieties. Dutch varieties are low German dialects, Swiss German varieties are Upper German dialects. What if some Swiss cantons some day decided to adopt the local Swiss German dialect as their official language? What if the government of Holland some day decided it would be more practical to adopt German as their written language?

quoted from Bollettino Storico Alta Valtellina BSAV 6/2003:

La distinzione tra lingua e dialetto, paradossalmente, è infatti molto poco... linguistica, e spesso connotazioni ideologiche o politiche complicano ulteriormente la questione. Secondo un aforisma che da tempo circola nella comunità dei sociolinguisti, “una lingua è un dialetto con un esercito e una flotta” (yiddish: “a shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot”; non è del tutto certo a chi spetti la prima attribuzione di questo detto, ma la sua prima citazione scritta sembra essere in [Weinreich (1945): 13] e la sua diffusione si deve ai linguisti Max e Uriel Weinreich e Joshua Fishman). Per chi fosse interessato ad approfondire queste tematiche si rimanda a moderni testi di dialettologia e di sociolinguistica, come p. es. [Chambers e Trudgill (1980)] (traduzione italiana [Chambers e Trudgill (1987)]), [Fasold (1984)] e [Fasold (1990)], [Benincà (1996)], [Grassi e al. (2001)], [Grassi e al. (2003)].

JørgenGB 13:32, 09 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, what you said sounds very reasonable. Like I said, I found the move from "Lombard language" to "Lombard dialects" questionable, and you seem to find it questionable as well, looking at both what you wrote (which, if nothing else, points in the direction of "'language' or '(set of) dialects' are both good enough"), and at the fact that you apparently moved the page back to "Lombard language".

So, aren't your critics perhaps wrongly addressed to me, since I was not the one who moved this page from "Lombard language" to "Lombard dialects", and I actually didn't quite like the move? Of course, I'm not a linguist, but while I do take the liberty to contribute to linguistics-related articles, I also do try to be very cautious before changing someone else's words, especially when that someone is a linguist.

My reply was cumulative, and I regret not making it clearer that it was not you I was addressing concerning the language vs. dialect issue. Sorry...

By the time I had finished reading what you wrote, I had quite clear what you were getting at. It's just that I felt a little offended by your "don't write if you're not an expert" line of writing (I'm more of the "don't write if you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about" team). But no worries... articles are progressing, and that's a good thing; then who cares if we don't have exactly the same approach on how an encyclopedia should be made. LjL 14:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, you see, it is not always easy to be a linguist :-) ... we actually do experience very often that the general public has a different approach to our branch of knowledge than they have to other sciences... A patient who is not a surgeon or a physician him/herself would never think of lecturing the surgeon who is going to remove his/her appendix on how to perform that operation. And no passenger on a scheduled flight would knock at the cockpit door to tell the captain how he should his/her aircraft. No reasonable entry-level user would tell a system administrator how to configure a computer network. People just accept the surgeon's, the pilot's or the computer scientist's expertise as a matter of fact. It is not always so with linguistics. To us sometimes it seems that, since everybody is able to speak at least one language, then some people feel entitled to say their own meaning on linguistic issues almost as a peer-to-peer discussion, even if they don't have the slightest idea of what they are speaking about. Please do not misunderstand me: this is by no means our case. May be I overreacted on the ground of previous experiences. Doing field research in the Alpine regions of Tessin and Lombardy I have had the opportunity to meet lots of nice and interesting people, but also many so-called "local experts" who in spite of their total lack of linguistic schooling or training would never listen to qualified advice, taking themselves as the only and unquestionable authority. I repeat: this is not our case.--Jorgengb 23:20, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

No entry-level user would tell a sysadmin how to configure the network? Are you sure? Oh, my bad, you said 'reasonable entry-level user...

Yes, after thinking over the matter I decided to add the adjective "reasonable" ;-)--Jorgengb 01:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Look, all I'm saying is that "entry-level linguistics users" should "be bold", as Wikipedia says, and write their articles about linguistics. I'm not saying that non-linguists should ever lightheartedly "correct" something a linguist wrote in an article, just because they believe something different.

Perhaps to your relief, anyway, I'm actually quite neutral on the political side of linguistics. I'm neither for promoting Italian "dialects" to full-scale official languages, nor for letting them disappear. I do care about these issues, but I don't have a well-formed opinion, yet.

LjL 00:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

To summarize: when dealing with language trees and classification it is often much more a matter of power and politics than of linguistics and dialectology. The main point, however, is to make clear that Lombard varieties are dialects of Lombard, which is Western Romance, and not dialects of Italian. So-called "regional Italian(s)" are, on the other hand, dialects of Italian. "regional Italian" means Italian as it is spoken in a particular region ("region" is here to be intended as "area" and not as "administrative subdivision of the territory of the Italian Republic"). Milan regional Italian is a dialect of Italian, Ticinese Regional Italian (IRT) is another, the regional Italian of Valtellina is still another, etc. They are all influenced by the characteristics of the local Lombard dialects (e.g. when people in the Valtellina pronounce the "g" of "giorno" not as in "George" but rather as "z" in "pleasure"), but nevertheless they remain dialects of Italian. Some people may find it politically convenient to blur the difference between "dialects of Italian" and "dialects of Lombard | Piedmontese | etc.", but this distinction is very clear e.g. according to the Unesco and Ethologue classifications. JørgenGB 16:18, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree. Only one thing: no matter what your (linguistically 100% correct) classification is, in Italy people do call things like Lombard "dialects", and they call "accents" what you call "dialects of Italian". This is wrong, agreed, but it's how we refer to these things, and I'm afraid it's not going to change anytime soon.

This is not entirely correct. Although a Norwegian living in Norway, I do have frequent contacts with the areas concerned (Tessin, the Grisons and Lombardy) and with linguistic literature in Italian. Modern linguists do use the terms "dialect" in the same way as I do. On the other hand, it is also true that non-linguists might ofthe use the terms in the way you describe. Well, to most people a "DNS server", a "Laptop", a "Macintosh" and a "LINUX PC" would just be "computers", wouldn't they?

Yep. But by saying "people call" I meant non-linguists (which, you'll admit, are quite a majority ;-). Certainly I hope that Italian linguists get the terms right! Also see below.

LjL 00:17, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

What does this fact mean for Wikipedia? Not much, but simply that the state of things (i.e. how 99% of Italians view the language/dialect issue) should be mentioned. Expecially on the Italian Wikipedia, but also here.

Notice that an encyclopedia should convey information and deeper knowledge, and not adapt its terminology to that of non-experts. --Jorgengb 23:56, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

It should not adapt the terminology, right. But it should convey information about how terminology is used by the people, even when those people use the wrong terminology. Clearly, it should clearly mark the wrong terminology as such; but it shouldn't wholesale ignore it.

Ok, then we agree on this point: Both the common wrong term and the correct one used by specialists should be mentioned, clearly marking the wrong one.--Jorgengb 01:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A stupid example: most people think that the speed of computers is measured in MHz. That's not true, MHz (at least those advertized by producers) usually measure the clock speed of CPUs.

LjL 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But a good encyclopedia should, IMHO, take account of the popular misbelief, by saying something like "Contrary to popular belief, the CPU clock speed isn't proportional to the computer speed; it's just one of the many factors that influence it". Do you see my point?

Yes, I do agree with you --Jorgengb 00:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LjL 00:17, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps a generic article dealing with language issues in Italy could be handy. Something on the lines of "what Italians speak, and what they think they speak, so that you're not too confused when you read articles about it".

LjL 14:32, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Why not? Just to report my own experience with colleagues and friends, I must say that Norwegians think it is strange that Italians use the name "dialects" referring to language varieties completely different from Italian and not even mutually intelligible. In Norway most people speak their own dialect, I mean a dialect of Norwegian, and dialects are mutually intelligible (the difference among Norwegian dialects being comparable approximately with the difference among Lombard dialects). In the UK, the term "dialects" refers more to what could be described as "accents". Etc. etc.--Jorgengb 23:56, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Replying to myself, the article "Italian dialects" may have the potential for being the kind of thing I was speaking about. On the other hand, the corresponding article "Dialetto" on it.wikipedia seems less than optimal, but that's something we're already discussing on it.wikipedia. LjL 14:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

LjL 21:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

From: Italian language> Dialects:<<The dialects of Italian identified by the Ethnologue are Tuscan, Piemontese, Abruzzese, Pugliese (Apulian), Umbrian, Laziale, Central Marchigiano, Cicolano-Reatino-Aquilano, and Molisan. Other dialects are Milanese, Brescian, Bergamasc, Modenese, Bolognese, Sicilian and so on, essentially one per city.>>

This is not correct. Ethnologue classifies Milanese, Brescian, Bergamasque as Lombard dialects, i.e. Gallo-Romance varieties. How could they be dialects of an Italo-Romance variety as Italian?--Jorgengb 00:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Don't ask me, I didn't write the article :-D. It just looked spot-on; I didn't even check how correct the content was.

LjL 00:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

From: Italian dialects:<<Italian dialects (in Italian dialetti italiani) are varieties of standard Italian, whereas Dialects of Italy (in Italian Dialetti d'Italia) may be unrecognized languages, such as Sicilian, Piedmontese, spoken in Italy whose grammar, syntaxis and vocabulary are rather different from standard Italian but which have not been officially given the status of languages.>>

The definition "Dialects of Italy" is a step in the right direction, but is still problematic. Would Lombard be a "Dialect of Italy" or a "Dialect of Switzerland" or both? And Franco-Provençal? a "Dialect of France", a "Dialect of Italy" or a "Dialect of Switzerland"? And North Sami? a "Dialect of Norway", "of Sweden" or "of Finland"?--Jorgengb 00:15, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

What are nynorsk and bokmål, by the way? :-P

The two written standards of Norwegian ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nynorsk ). The difference between them might be compared with that between two Lombard dialects. Du talar/skriv svensk, ikkje sant? Då forstår du sikkert også denne setninga, som er på nynorsk. Du snakker/skriver svensk, ikke sant? Da forstår du sikkert også denne setningen, som er på bokmål. Bokmål is actually "norwegianized Danish", while nynorsk was constructed in the 19th century by Ivar Aasen as a common written language based on the Norwegian dialects and always keeping Old Norse in mind. Both bokmål and nynorsk have evolved since that time, and are still evolving. --Jorgengb 01:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Du snackar/skriver svenska, eller hur? Då förstår du säkert också denna frasen, som är på nynorska/bokmål.

But I was just making a(nother) example of how language-related stuff can be confused ;-) And Norwegian certainly looks confusing to an outsider, believe me... what other langauge (but wait, it's not an official language, each dialect is as official as any other) has two written standards (which both apply to any dialect, to some better than to other)? No offence meant, but, at first sight, it looks like a textbook case of "How to Create Problems when in Lack of Them"! :-D

LjL 01:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not exactly. Yes, Norwegians mainly speak their own dialects, and write in one of the two standard languages (which also have different alternative forms, just to make the matter simpler...). The Norwegian situation is rather peculiar, maybe comparable with the one of Belarus for certain aspects, and it is so particular that it is often mentioned in textbooks about sociolinguistics and language planning. But there is a reason for all this: after 400 years under Denmark, Norwegian had survived only in the spoken dialects, while the official written language was Danish. When Norway became independent, there were two roads to a national language: 1. to norwegianize Danish --> this gave bokmål, and 2. to define a written language based on what people spoke in Norway, i.e.the different dialects --> this gave nynorsk (well, this was an extremely simplified version of the whole story). Anyway, there are areas with even more complicate situations: just think of the Grisons, with the different written varieties of Romansh AND the unified rumantsch grischun (in addition to written standard German and spoken Swiss German, and even written and spoken Italian and spoken Lombard varieties in 3 valleys). Anyway, the fact of being exposed in daily life to many different dialects has made Norwegians much more robust (in the technical sense) than Swedes and Danes when it comes to understanding other Nordic languages. This fact has been observed and verified also in a recent study. To put it in another way, we could say that our speech recognition algorithm has been trained with much less homogeneous data than the Danes' and Swedes' --Jorgengb 00:30, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, for what it's worth, I think Lombard would be a dialect of both Italy and Switzerland (but, naturally, would be referred to as a "dialect of Italy" in an article titled "Italian dialects").

...and a "dialect of Switzerland" in an article titled "Swiss dialects". That is more or less what has been done by Ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com). Btw.: both Ethnologue and the UNESCO clearly classify Lombard as a language quite distinct from Italian (for a rough quantitative estimate just count the intervening nodes on the Ethnologue language tree between Lombard and Italian...)--Jorgengb 01:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LjL 00:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a lexeme is "a meaningful linguistic unit that is an item in the vocabulary of a language" (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=lexeme) --Jorgengb 00:42, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reverting to previous version. 1. Lombard may be spoken in Sicily, as well as iy may be spoken in Australia, in the US, etc. Nevertheless, the core area of Lombardy is Ticino, the Grisons and (Italian) Lombardy. 2. I may be usefl to group Lombard varieties into Eastern and Western, but it would be misleading to regard Eastern and Western Lombard as varieties with several dialects.--Jorgengb 22:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certainly Lombard was spoken in Sicily before the United States and Australia were countries. I'm not sure if you're implying that Lombard is foreign to Sicily, because they weren't the original inhabitants. The Lombard people settled into certain parts of Sicily (the 11th century) just as the many other groups. They may be relatively newer to the island, but it doesn't make them more foreign. Lombard may only have been spoken in the U.S. or Australia for no more than 150 years, hence such a comparison to Sicily cannot be made. --VingenzoTM 13:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In addition, the original "western Lombard" variety spoken in the Sicilian communities has evolved so much over time, that one can make a legitimate claim that several separate "dialects" or "sub-dialects" of western Lombard Sicilian exist throughout the five different provinces it occupies. Visit the following webpage to see the three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of western Lombard Sicilian. It can be postulated that even more forms exist as languages have always evolved, divergently, rapidly and dissimilarly in Sicily, as a result of the terrain. As a native Sicilian speaker, I can assure you that I can barely understand a quarter of the material in either of the three different Sicilian forms found on that website. Again, there are probably even more than three different "forms" (dialects, subdialects) of Lombard in Sicily, especially since they are spread out across five different provinces. I also would like to share with you an amusing little tidbit that I observed over the years during interaction and storytelling with my grandparents and other older relatives. For those Sicilians alive from the time before Italian unification (1861) up to just forty years ago (and possibly even today for the elderly), Sicilians have always considered those people from a different town or province than their own as foreigners. This is quite astonishing, but it was done because even someone from two miles away, while still speaking a similar dialect of Sicilian, had a noticeably different accent. In some cities, the accent can changed dramatically just from street to street (example, Agrigento/Girgenti). Therefore, to conclude that there cannot be many different forms, or "dialects" or "subdialects" of western Lombard in Sicily would be absurd, especially due to the fact that there was plenty of time for corruption, evolution, and dialectization to occurr in the last ten centuries since the Lombards entered Sicily. link showing three of the possibly many subdialects of western Lombard in Sicily --VingenzoTM 13:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with VingenzoTM. Under Jorgengb's reasoning, the fact that Greek is spoken in parts of Southern Italy should not be mentioned in the article about Greek. But as far as we know, there is an uninterrupted Greek tradition in S.I. that dates to ancient Magna Graecia! Furthermore, I think that most scholars believe that Greek did not originate in Greece: shouldn't the fact that Greek is spoken in Greece be mentioned? :-) LjL 14:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Lombard Wikipedia

I suggest the proposed project to include other Gallo-Italic varieties. Sarcelles 28 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)

Why doesn't Italy recognize Lombard?

It really is a shame that smaller Switzerland recognizes Lombard, yet Italy, where it came from, doesn't, or perhaps doesn't want, to recognize Lombard. I should suggest to all Lombard speakers in Italy should try to use only Lombard. Besides, I thought that the north of Italy was supposed to be the wealthier part, so that would mean that whatever would be spoke, that it would be no problem and that it would not discriminate whoever speaks whatever? I believe that the region of Lombardy should become a part of Switzerland if this commences! IlStudioso 06:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

No such thing as "Lombard language"

I thought this was a no-brainer, but it seems some people have strange ideas around here... The "lombard language" does not exist. You can talk about a "Lombard family" of dialects (or languages if you prefer, this is not the issue). The "lombard language" is just as absurd as "the romance language", "the scandinavian language", "the iberian language", "the slavic language". It's a plain nonsense, and the article has a very misleading title. If some "modern linguists" came up with some weird definitions of language where a language may not even be mutually intelligible with itself, kudos, but readers expect an explicative title.

I mean, the article itself states that it is "a group of related dialects" and even that "Sometimes the word "Lombard" is used referring to an actually not yet existent common language." (yet??)

I also noticed that some of the notes I put about the historical reasons of the reduced use of dialects has been cut out. Will see what can be recovered. Anyway, my point is the absurdity of the singular number. --Orzetto 03:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization/rewrite of January 9, 2005

Hi, I changed quite a few things. Please keep comments in their subsections and sign each one, so it is easier to keep track. --Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Number of speakers

9,133,855 is outrageously off the mark. It is more than the population of Lombardy. Since most people under 40 do not speak dialect at all because they grew up with Italian, since there are consistent numbers of both extra-european and southern-Italian immigrants (Milan is Italy's third Apulian city after Bari and Brindisi, to give an idea—then we have to count Sicilians, Campanians, and all the mixed marriages where dialect cannot be used for intercommunication... you get the picture). I put N/A until a more reasonable estimate can be found. Please notice we are talking about speakers, not people who merely understand it, or know just one sentence or two. --Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I very well agree with you. It's like saying everybody in the United States speaks English, which, actually, a nice plump percentage come here not even knowing what English is, especially those who come from nations that don't border the US. Giacomo DiBenedetto (talk) 19:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

"Lombardic"

I removed it since there is a disambiguation link pointing to Lombardic language (which is not related). --Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Language vs. Dialect vs. ...

I tried to avoid using "language" or "dialect" altogether, so we avoid at least this one controversy. --Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Rearrangement and sectioning

Now the arguments are presented as Introduction-Features-Varieties-Usage-Links. I added something on the historical-political reasons of usage in Italy, which I feel must be explained. --Orzetto 23:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Page title

Lombard language v Lombard dialects page move request (WP:RM#9_January_2006) - if the issue isn't settled, can people vote here please? Rd232 ^talk 13:15, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll close this as no consensus, most obviously. —Nightstallion (?) 08:08, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Lombard language → Lombard dialects – No such thing as a lombard language (as all parties recognised), there is rather a family of dialects (or languages if you prefer). Common usage is "dialects".

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support Well, I propose so it's obvious... Orzetto 23:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Olessi 17:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Aldux 21:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
• OpposeLorenzino 12:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral — see comment below — Gareth Hughes 17:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral per Gareth Hughes. Lombard (linguistics) à la Cantonese (linguistics) or Mandarin (linguistics) which refer to language entities that are sometimes considered dialects and consist of dialects themselves. Will propose such a move below. AjaxSmack 19:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose ISO standard. Sorry for delay. If needed I will propose the opposite move. Best regards,--Clamengh 16:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose ISO 639-3, Ethnologue, Unesco Red Book. Please read what I have written here in the section Back to the language issue. --Jorgengb 18:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: a lot of international standards. Mutual intelligibility is still lacking a scientific definition. For instance, as a matter a fact, it is fine at lmo.wp, where everybody talks (in fact writes) his/her dialect.--10caart 11:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Cevlakohn 04:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

---

The above move request is now invalid because:

1. The polling time has expired (See WP:RM)
2. It does not reflect the current article title (see below for move request that superseded this one)

Although I'm not an admin, I am being bold and declaring it closed. If a move is still desired, a new proposal should be listed with the current discussion at the bottom of this page and at WP:RM following normal procedure. —  AjaxSmack  20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Discussion

Last time I proposed the move it was closed for lack of consensus, but those who previously moved to "Lombard language" in fact did not intervene (their discussion is quite old). I find it clear that there is no such thing as one Lombard language, just like there is no Indoeuropean or no Iberian. It's a family of various dialects, not even all mutually intelligible. --Orzetto 23:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Orzetto, I'd advise you to study some linguistics... I have the impression that your idea of language is very close to the "political" concept of language (that of official language or standard language if you prefer), it does not reflect at all the definition of language from a linguistic pov. A language IS a family of related dialects! Anyway I don't completely agree with the notion of Lombard language either. Would it not be better to distinguish Orobico (here Eastern) and Insubre (here Western) as different languages? --Lorenzino 12:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I feel fairly neutral on this one, but I do dislike the use of the word dialect in article titles. It is clear that there is no standard variety of Lombard, and mutual intelligibility, although generally high, can be low between certain varieties. The picture is complicated by the use of Standard Italian as a lingua franca. Any language will have varieties within it, and, in some cases, a variety or group of varieties might be considered to be distinct from the rest. This usually happens because they are linguistically distinct, they have a body of literature that sets them apart or they are politically distinct. The old adage is "a language is a dialect with an army". I have no problem with the article staying where it is, as there are sufficient sources that treat the varieties of Lombard as a unitary language unit while acknowledging that the variety. It might be possible to rename to Lombard language varieties or Lombard (linguistics). — Gareth Hughes 17:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but if you are to propose a Lombard language, you should at least mix vocabulary from all of the dialects since you are to make a language. Otherwise, just stick to Orzetto's idea of Lombard dialects, rather than Lombard language -- Giacomo DiBenedetto (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Intelligibility is high for "neighbours", but one from Ticino can hardly understand the dialect of one from Bergamo. Actually, Milanese already do not understand a word. I would like to see these sources acknowledging Lombard as a language (the ones in the article are mostly about the Ticino variant). They are surely relevant for the article in any case, but I never found out exactly what the argument would be.

In any case, Lombard (linguistics) would make an excellent title in my opinion. Maybe we can agree on that one? --Orzetto 23:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Would some of these people supporting the request kindly answer the following question: these Lombard dialects are dialects of which language? Before replying please consider the definition of dialect "A dialect is a variety of a language used by people from a particular geographic area". Please do not answer italian as we have already agreed that standard italian and lombard dialects belong to different branches of romance languages. Lorenzino 23:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Why, that's simple—of Vulgar Latin, with about a 2000 year-long evolution. It is a well-known and uncontested fact that Italian was synthesised from dialects (especially the Florence variant) when national unity came about. However, as far as I heard, northern Italian dialects (with the possible exception of Friulian) do fall within the Italian system, it's just that the Italian system is, for historical reasons, more varying than the one of countries that were united for longer time. But again it is a question of definitions. --Orzetto 23:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Lorenzino: I am not discussing language vs. dialect. My point is that there is no single language or dialect that can be called "Lombard language|dialect". There is just too much variation. As far as I can remember from a linguistic POV, an academic once told me "There are things a sane-of-mind linguist will never do, and one of these is arguing on the distinction between language and dialect". Since everybody calls it dialect there, it seems more natural to name them what they are called. --Orzetto 23:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm relucting to move this, since it seems that the vote would correct a factual inaccuracy, from what Gareth has said... —Nightstallion (?) 10:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Lombard language → Lombard (linguistics) – per Gareth Hughes' comments above. See Cantonese (linguistics) or Mandarin (linguistics) which refer to "linguistic entities" that are sometimes considered dialects and consist of dialects themselves. Adapted from the entry on the WP:RM page

---

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support per nomination. AjaxSmack 19:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support as it simplifies the issue a lot. --Orzetto 23:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Olessi 17:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Aldux 11:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't know what we are talking about... see my comments below Lorenzino 20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Lorenzino. Bubba ditto 01:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2 discussion

Add any additional comments

I really still can't understand this request. For consistency we should then move (just some examples) Sardinian language, Sicilian language, Langue d'Oc etc etc. because "it is clear that there is not one sardinian or sicilian or occitan language"". This is absurd. The fact that a language has a standard dialect is irrelevant. Again, if "A dialect is a variety of a language used by people from a particular geographic area" then these lombard dialects are varieties of WHAT language? Someone please tell me... Lorenzino 20:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Lombard refers to the dialects of Vulgar Latin spoken in Lombardy. Since for some reasons (political) they could be considered dialects of Italian, for other reasons (historical, geographical) a single language, and still for others (linguistic) a group of languages or dialects, I proposed Lombard (linguistics) as the article name with redirects and explanation within the article settling any disagreement or confusion. The same format is used for Mandarin (linguistics) and Cantonese (linguistics) which present similar disagreement. See Italian dialects for more info on the dialect vs. language issue in Italy. AjaxSmack 07:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ajax thanks for your clarification. I understand and appreciate your proposal as a good compromise anyway I won't change my mind. The fact is that this argument arose because Lombard does not have a standard dialect, like "important languages" such as French or German, and that Lombard has no official status whatsoever. Again, this is irrelevant to define a language. To be consistent we should move all similar cases... I would strongly support a request to rename all language pages, but using different criterias for similar cases makes no sense to me.Lorenzino 19:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lombard wikipedia

Could someone start wikipedia in Lombard?Myrtone (the strict Australian wikipedian)(talk):-)

Check [1] (note: LMO and not LOM). Cate 13:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Siculo-gallic dialects

I find it extraordinary that some authors have been so dismissive of the siculo-gallic dialects that have as their origin the large scale immigration of mostly Lombards to Sicily between 1090 and 1120 after the Norman conquest of Sicily. These dialects are spoken to this day in Piazza Armerina, Sperlinga and Aidone amongst others (but in ever decreasing numbers). After 900 years they are more a mixture of Sicilian and Lombard dialects. I would have thought that they at least rate a mention in this article (but definitely deserve a serious article of their own). This is a quote from the article on Sicily: "There are also several areas where dialects of the Lombard language of the Gallo-Italic family are spoken. Much of this population is also tri-lingual, being able to also speak one of the Sicilian dialects as well." ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I also recommend the following excellent text which provides a detailed linguistic history on the subject: * Hull, Dr Geoffrey (1989) Polyglot Italy:Languages, Dialects, Peoples, CIS Educational, Melbourne. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that Siculo-Gallic does not necessarily imply Siculo-Lombard. In any case, texts in those varieties are unintelligible to a Lombard speaker.--80.202.30.190 18:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a very interesting issue, and I think the Siculo-Gallic (or Gallo-Sicilian ?) varieties deserve a wiki of their own. Could ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑, who seems to be the most qualified expert about those varieties, start a Siculo-Gallic or Gallo-Sicilian Wiki?--Jorgengb 17:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Tone of article deteriorating

I see some political sentiments creeping into this article which, if not POV, represent either OR or something certainly difficult to verify (I refer to the last few edits). I have already given my thoughts on this article above, and do not wish to get involved. I will say this though, apart from the political undercurrents of this article, the following are fictitious words: "distantiate" and "fictive". Find some real words, or better still, rewrite the whole thing to make it an article actually broaching linguistic themes. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 12:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

CH or IT

Which country should be mentioned first, Switzerland or Italy?

• Lombard is far better preserved in Switzerland;
• Lombard is more socially accepted in Switzerland;
• More money is invested in research about Lombard varieties in Switzerland than in Italy;
• In present-day Switzerland there is no political will to eradicate Lombard;
• The largest research institutions working on lombard and Lombard culture are in Switzerland;
• The largest publications about Lombard come from Switzerland;
• The chances for Lombard to survive are much better in Switzerland than in Italy;

Therefore I think Switzerland should be mentioned first. --80.202.30.190 18:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree, but the point is that this is an encyclopedia so you must provide facts to your statements, otherwise defining in which country is better preserved becomes a totally subjective matter. Unless you provide facts, Lombardy (which has itself more inhabitants than the whole Switzerland) should be mentioned first. --Fertuno 20:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Mmh, well that's not so obvius, but I am afraid I agree (especially about last point: I mean this by saying 'I am afraid') Bests--213.140.11.135 17:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I forgot logging in: --10caart 17:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh là là, merci! Well... I agree.--Belinzona 13:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. --Clamengh 17:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Lombard varieties, Lombard dialects, Lombard idioms, etc.

Once it has been made clear at the beginning that "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" and not to a single, standardised variety, there is no need to repeat "Lombard varieties" or "dialects" or "idioms" every time throughout the whole article. "Lombard" is just a shorthand form for "Lombard varieties".--80.202.30.190 18:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Back to the language issue

It seems to me that many of the users who have debated the "language issue" in this discussion page are not very up-to-date when it comes to modern linguistic thory and to the meaning of the word 'language'. Cfr. Ausbausprache, etc.. There is no doubt that Italian and French are Ausbau languages. Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language, but nevertheless it is an Abstand language on the ground of its structural distance (in German: Abstand) from, say, Italian and French:

"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." (Ausbausprache, etc.).

We can therefore say that Lombard as per today is not an Ausbau language; that Lombard is an Abstand language; that Lombard as per today has no own Dachsprache or 'umbrella language' (the so-called 'koiné ticinese' might actually be a good candidate for Swiss Lombard varieties or even for all Western Lombard varieties). Finally:

Kloss has also used the term pseudo-dialectized abstand language for cases where a variety is so different from its Dachsprache that it ought to be regarded as a separate language on abstand grounds, but is nevertheless treated more like a dialect in social practice. Examples include Sardinian vis-a-vis Italian, or Occitan vis-a-vis French. (Ausbausprache, etc.).

This is also the case of Lombard vis-a-vis Italian as a Dachsprache.

Please notice that in the Wiki about Ausbausprache, etc. the term 'language' is used in all cases, making no assumption as to whether there is a codified standard or not.

If an authoritative linguist like Kloss, together with many others, uses the word 'Sprache'/'language' without implying standardisation, I can't see any reason (other than Italian cultural imperialism...) why we shouldn't safely switch the "Lombard (linguistics)" wiki back to "Lombard language". --Jorgengb 18:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw:

For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; see [2].

For Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the 'languages of Switzerland' [3] and one of the 'languages of Italy' [4]

As per today 20th November 2006, the Lombard Wikipedia [5] with its 3,014 articles ranks as the 89th of 250 (ranking for Armenian: 91; Friulian: 106; Cantonese: 107; Quechua: 131; Romansh: 143; Classical Chinese: 159; Sardinian: 160). The Lombard Wikipedia shows the main page alternatively in Western and Eastern Lombard (odd and even days, or the other way round). --Jorgengb 18:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I report below the three oppositions (including mine) to the original move as supports for going back to the original title--10caart 11:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC).

Motivation: in fact a new vote.--10caart 11:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support ISO standard. Sorry for delay. [...] Best regards,--Clamengh 16:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support ISO 639-3, Ethnologue, Unesco Red Book. Please read what I have written here in the section Back to the language issue. --Jorgengb 18:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support: a lot of international standards. Mutual intelligibility is still lacking a scientific definition. For instance, as a matter a fact, it is fine at lmo.wp, where everybody talks (in fact writes) his/her dialect.--10caart 11:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The above opinions should be formulated into a formal move request at WP:RM to gain wider input. —  AjaxSmack  20:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• support; Thank you; unfortunately, I am new at English wikipedia, so, for the moment I am expressing my support here; preceding move was purely political, of course, so it deserves to be reverted; Lombard language is a widely accepted linguistic category, even in a Cisalpine framework. See for example Italia settentrionale, crocevia di idiomi romanzi, Niemeyer, Tübingen, 1995, pag.83. I hope someone else will do what  AjaxSmack  kindly asks. Thank you--OlBergomi 10:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To OlBergomi: Would you mind pasting here (some of) the text from Italia settentrionale, crocevia di idiomi romanzi, Niemeyer, Tübingen, 1995, pag.83 ? Thanks ! - --Jorgengb 01:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support: for instance, google search for "Lombard language" returns 7.850 results; google search for Lombard language returns 1.170.000 results. Does anyone know if user:Orzetto is a psychiatrist? Thank you, Bests form Switzerland!--Belinzona 13:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

PS I have the same problems as OlBergomi, I am new here (I didn't understand exactly what AjaxSmack means)--Belinzona 13:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support--Coumh 09:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move.--Flavi 10:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 3

Lombard_(linguistics) → Lombard language — For the UNESCO Red Book, Lombard is a 'potentially endangered' language; for Ethnologue, Lombard is one of the languages of Switzerland and one of the languages of Italy. Flavi 11:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Oppose: I don't know about the UNESCO Red Book, but Ethnologue is not a reliable source for language vs. dialect issues. The Dialects of Italy treats Lombard as a group of dialects. --Ptcamn 15:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

For many Italian scholars, Lombard (as well as Sardinian, Friulian, Ladin, Rumantsch (the 4th national language of Switzerland since 1938), etc.) is an Italian dialect or, even worse, a dialect of Italian. The existence of this linguistically unsubstantiated claim can be explained with cultural, sociological and political reasons. For various historical factors the fate of Rumantsch, Friulian, Sardinian, Ladin, etc. has been luckier than that of Lombard and they have been in the international limelight for a long time. Nowadays it is no longer politically correct to consider Rumantsch, Ladin, Friulian, Sardinian, etc. as Italian dialects, and it seems that those scholars who still hold this view try to keep it for themselves, as it would be unacceptable to the modern, international scientific community. Lombard has so far been practically unknown to the international community, although in the last few years it has been emerging in international arena.--80.202.30.190 15:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support: 1. The UNESCO Red Book has been commissioned by the UN / UNESCO and compiled by linguists; 2. Ethnologue is not free from errors, but nevertheless is a reliable and widely used and _impartial_ resource. Please see what I have written in the section #Back_to_the_language_issue above. --Jorgengb 16:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV: All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias. The "Italian cultural imperialism" you subtly disparage above is the basis of a point of view, and one that shouldn't be ignored. To say that Ethnologue's definition of dialect/language (which, by the way, is sometimes at odds even with that of mainstream linguists) is more correct than the politically-based definition isn't a fair treatment. --Ptcamn 16:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

According to your view, why should Lombard -- an endangered variety -- be denied the right to exist?--80.202.30.190 17:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

If that's not a straw man I don't know what is. --Ptcamn 17:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not meant so. I'm just earnestly trying to understand your point of view -- in other words: I am trying to understand what you have against Lombard and its speakers... :-) I see that you "[...] would like to know oodles more languages." Why not some Lombard variety? --80.202.30.190 17:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing against Lombard. This isn't my personal point of view I'm defending here. I'm just advocating neutrality. --Ptcamn 17:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me just quote again the Ausbausprache, etc. Wiki:

"A language may be an abstand language without being an ausbau language. This is often the case with minority languages used within a larger nation state, where the minority language is used only in private and all official functions are performed in the majority language." (Ausbausprache, etc.).--Jorgengb 17:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That's nice, but Kloss doesn't have a monopoly on the definition of language. Others disagree. From the Dialect article:

"There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference." --Ptcamn 18:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true that neither Kloss nor anyone else has a monopoly on the definition of language, but many authoritative linguists do agree with Kloss. And for many authoritative linguists it is not problematic to call Lombard / Lombardian a language. Cf. for example:

- Tapani Salminen/Unesco Red Book,

- WURM, Stephen A. (2001): Atlas of the World’s Languages in Danger of Disappearing. Paris: UNESCO Publishing. p. 29:

Further south in Switzerland and northern Italy, several Rhaeto-Romansh languages are in danger, i.e. Romansch, Ladin and Friulian, as are a number of other Romance languages in Italy (including Sardinia), Albania, Greece, southern France and Spain, such as Ligurian, Lombardian, Piemontese, the four forms of Sardinian, and also Corsican on French Corsica.

- COMRIE, Bernard; MATTHEWS, Stephen; POLINSKY, Maria (eds.) (2003): The Atlas of languages : the origin and development of languages throughout the world. New York : Facts On File. p. 40.

- cfr. also the problems discussed in: CHAMBERS, John Kenneth e TRUDGILL, Peter (1980): Dialectology. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, p. 3-6

--Jorgengb 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support: It seems to me that there are forces out there that for political reasons oppose the recognition of Lombard, even though this is in contrast with modern unbiased linguistic research. Their arguments are weak and based on outdated definitions of what is a 'language'. I vote against the discrimination of the Lombard language varieties--Siri68 16:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC).
• Oppose: Title should be Lombard (appropriate disambiguation info), not Lombard language, unless Lombard language is the most common way it is referenced (which, apparently, it is not). --Serge 21:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

In principle I do agree with you, Serge, but I'm afraid you're wrong when you infer that apparently 'Lombard language' is not the most common way it is referred to. Actually, Lombard language happens to be the most common way to refer to Lombard in the scientific community aware of its existence (cf. authors mentioned above: Salminen, Wurm, Comrie et al., etc.). Unfortunately, Lombard has long been almost unknown to the international community.--Jorgengb 15:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, even the Italian Wikipedia has chosen to call Lombard, Piemontese, etc. 'languages'. The Italian Wikipedia uses names like X language whenever X is recognised by ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 or ISO 639-3. Cf. the following statement at the top of the pages Lingua_lombarda [6] and Lingua_piemontese [7]:

Riconoscendo l'arbitrarietà delle definizioni, in seguito a discussione, si è deciso di usare nella nomenclatura delle pagine il termine lingua per quelle riconosciute come tali nella codifica ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 oppure ISO 639-3, approvata nel 2005. Per gli altri idiomi, viene usato il termine dialetto. (elenco ufficiale)--Jorgengb 20:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support: if people writes - reads - speaks - understands a set of words/sounds why shouldn't this communication system be called language? As an example I would like to citate the definition of language taken from the "Online Cambridge Dictionary": ..a system of communication consisting of sounds, words and grammar, or the system of communication used by the people of a particular country or profession..

Furthermore, why Klingonaase is considered a language? Do you know any Klingon in your town? Or have you ever seen any newspaper written in the Earth Language? However those system are referred to as languages (on the EN:WP too). I really don't understand the strong dislike feelings against the Lombard Language and its speakers... --Flavi 11:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

And now it looks like User:Clamengh has gone ahead and moved it before the consensus is in. The box says "after a few days", not "after a few hours". --Ptcamn 17:49, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if Lombard is a "language", the title should be Lombard (language), not Lombard language, unless Lombard language happens to be the most common way it is referred to. It seems to me that the title debate should be about whether the name should be Lombard (linguistics), Lombard (language), or Lombard (dialect), but Lombard language should not even be one of the options. --Serge 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any other instances of language-related articles in the en.wikipedia with titles like X (language) ? Btw., Lombard language happens to be the most common way to refer to Lombard in the scientific community aware of its existence (cf. authors mentioned above) --Jorgengb 14:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Move to Lombard (language)

Per WP:BOLD, and the fact that the debate here seems to be more about whether Lombard is a "language" or not, I moved Lombard language to Lombard (language). You can argue and decide by consensus whether language or something else should be the disambiguator in the parenthetic remark, but, whatever you decide, please do not make the disambiguator be part of the name of the subject in the title - leave it in parenthesis. Thanks. See WP:NAME and WP:DAB. --Serge 21:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I did not realize (until now), that it is a Wikipedia convention to use the language suffix in the title without parenthesis. That doesn't seem right to me. I've started a discussion about this over at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (languages). --Serge 22:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not satisfied with that convention either. Actually, X (linguistics) seems to me a better option than both X language and X (language). But as long as no generalised renaming of all articles from X language to X (linguistics) is undertaken, it seems to me rather discriminatory to rename only certain articles. Therefore I think the name of this article should be Lombard language until all X language articles are renamed.--Jorgengb 16:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Thank you

Sirs, many thanks to everybody for taking part in this passionating discussion. As a matter of fact, 'Lombard language' (or tongue) is the standard term used by scholars to designate this language. So this is the right place for this article, as Bkonrad correctly poointed out. As someone else noted, a Google search for 'Lombard language' returns more than 1.000.000 results: I think this settles the question. I think that politicised views should be left far from this encyclopedia, as WP:NOT requires. Reality is simple: no doubt that Lombard is a dying language, so everyone is kindly asked not to shot at the red cross. Thank you. Here are some references:

• Glauco Sanga: La lingua Lombarda, in Koiné in Italia, dalle origini al 500 (Koinés in Italy, from the origin to 1500), Lubrina publisher, Bèrghem
• Orbis Latinus
• dict.cc, Deutsch-English Übersetzaung
• Logos dictionary for Mantuan and Bressan
• the linguist list
• tourist information
• Studi di lingua e letteratura lombarda offerti a Maurizio Vitale, (Studies in Lombard language and literature) Pisa : Giardini, 1983
• Fasolo, Giovanni Battista<ca. 1600-ca. 1664> - Il Carro di Madama Lucia , et una Serenata in lingua lombarda (Lombard language), che fa la gola, a carnevale; dopo un Ballo di tre Zoppi; con una Sguazzata di colasone. Una moresca... - Roma: Robletti, Giovanni Battista, 1628
• Brevini, Franco - Lo stile lombardo : la tradizione letteraria da Bonvesin da la Riva a Franco Loi / Franco Brevini - Pantarei, Lugan - 1984 (Lombard style: literary tradition from Bonvesin da la Riva to Franco Loi )
• G.Hull: the linguistic unity of northern Italy and Rhaetia, PhD thesis, University of Sidney West, 1982
• romaniaminor, a map of Romance languages, including lombard language It needs Flash.
• A paper by the Catalan linguist Santi Arbós, see contents at p.2
• La llengua llombarda - Article by Andrea de Vecchi (Catalan)
• Italia Settentrionale crovevia di idiomi romanzi, atti del convergno internazionale Trento 1993 (Northern Italy carrefour of Romance idioms, proceedings of international congress, Trent 1993), Niemeyer, Tübingen 1995
• Unesco red book of endangered languages
• [www.iso.ch ISO international standards]

Many other ones available upon request. All in all, please, be so kind to get yourselves documented upon verifiable sources. From now on I will be speaking as a spokesman of Lombard community: we are firm in defending our language, and this place for this article. Thank you. --Clamengh 17:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Agree The Lombard varieties are in danger, as im most areas they are not transmitted to the coming generations. The Lombard issue needs support and positive action, not fruitless discussions!--Jorgengb 23:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Agree. --Flavi 11:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Agree: the same danger, though not yet so advanced as in Italy, takes place in Switzerland--62.203.5.130 14:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)--Belinzona 14:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC) (not logged in, sorry)
• Agree:--10caart 15:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Dialect and Romansh

I removed the following statement.

No Lombard variety is mutually intelligible with Italian. The Lombard speaking population of Switzerland have long been indentifying as the "Italian speaking community", which stands in stark contrast with the closely related Romansh language, which is never thought of as an Italian dialect.

In my opinion the comparison does not stand: Romansh was never considered an Italian dialect because it isn't one. In the Italian speaking part of Switzerland (as in Italy) the spoken language is Italian (and in addition Lombard). In the Romansh speaking regions Italian is not spoken. Romansh is the sole language.Matteo 14:12, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

WMF policy on languages

It's up to en.wiki to decide what the community pleases on this issue. Anyway, I wish you all to note that the WMF at large uses ISO 639-3 as a source for language denomination, and not anything else. No matter what happens here NO request based on codes external to ISO 639-3 will be accepted, according to the current policy. We are no Language Darwin, we don't create names, and much of what is happening here is largely in the bounds of Original Research. Everyone is welcome to document local academic positions that step out of mainstream international classification, but acting as a source at personal level is off limits. I feel this much is due. --Bèrto 'd Sèra 11:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Lombard Wikipedia

FYI, please see:

• meta:Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Lombard Wikipedia

--A. B. ^(talk) 15:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The 'varieties' issue

The statement "The term Lombard refers to a group of related varieties" is confusing, as it implies that "being made up of related varieties" is a peculiar carachteristic of Lombard, whilst it is true of any known human language (though it's true of some artificial languages too, eg LISP). I've now edited this, hoping that we can discuss the varieties in the "varieties" section, as is done for other languages. Also, the statement that "The union of Western Lombard or Insubric, Eastern Lombard and intermediate varieties under the denomination of "Lombard" is simply conventional and not based on linguistic analysis" is utterly wrong, as the two differ mostly in their word-level phonology (Easter Lombard shows s- spirantisation and fricative elision in context where western Lombard doesn't) but they are clearly to be brought together when it comes to their syntactic structure, as well as their wider-level phonology (as discussed by, for example, Biondelli [[8]]). --Dakrismeno (talk) 12:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I stress the point: there is nothing called "Lombard Language", there are a bunch of similar, sometimes not so similar, languages that are spoken in Lombardy and south switzerland. Lombardy languages are more different each other than, for instance, America-English and British-English or Swiss-Italian ad Italy-Italian. I hope that lombardy-as-a-nation POV do not trash also this article. --DracoRoboter (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC) PS no source, sorry. Riassumendo in italiano: spero che tu non ci riesca anche qui a distruggere una voce decente.

Ethnologue, ISO, and a series of linguistic studies (Bertoni 1916, Pelegrini 1977, Rohlfs 1967, inter alia) have argued for Lombard as a genuine linguistic entity. What scientific support is there for the statements you've made?? --Dakrismeno (talk) 11:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

external links

The site www.alperiodic.net links to an online periodical in Lombard, for those who wish to see what the language looks and sounds like. Why was it deleted?? --Dakrismeno (talk) 11:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It's being spammed across many wikis.  — Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 16:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That website is one of the very few resources where people can go to see what Lombard looks and sounds like. That seems to be a good reason for adding it to wikis that report information about the Lombard language. What happened to assuming good faith? --Dakrismeno (talk) 16:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

To this day, the page still does not have a link to a website/resource where people can go to if they wish to see what Lombard looks and sounds like. If there are no objections, I would like to add such link. As there are very few resources in written lombard, we might even add all of them (about 3). --Dakrismeno (talk) 14:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

As to today 3rd of February, noone has opposed my suggestion. I proceed to add teh link, hopefully it won't be immediately deleted this time. --Dakrismeno (talk) 13:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

"Family language"?

A "Familiy Language" title has been added to the introductory section in the last edit. 1) I have no idea what that term would mean 2) I thought it was customary to have untitled introductory sections to the topic

I didn't want to just revert it without saying anything, but I'll revert it shortly.

LjL (talk) 17:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Classification

In the Language infobox, the subdivision Gallo-Italian appears where other languages have Gallo-Iberian (between Western and Gallo-Romance). I don't know if this is a mistake or a reflection of some taxonomy war, but it's certainly confusing. Gallo-Italian redirects to Northern Italian languages, where the infobox says they are a subdivision of Gallo-Romance.--87.162.47.230 (talk) 18:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

"nasty habit" of wikipedia

I don't think this statement was POV. As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not POV. I thus proceed to change it back. --Dakrismeno (talk) 10:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Lombard as not a derivative of Italian

As also reported in the info-box, the gallo-italic language(s) belong to a separate Romance subfamily compared to Italian, and therefore are by definition separate from Italian (though disputable whether they form one or several separate languages, but this is a separate issue). As it is logically impossible for two given languages to (1) belong to a separate subfamily AND (2) be dialects of each other, the statement was entirely coherent with Romance categorization, and thus not "dubious". I thus proceed to change it back. --Dakrismeno (talk) 14:15, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

"Citation Needed" Happiness

Hello All,

I've used wikipedia for some time, like most college students, but am rather new to the whole writing side. Naytheless, I have something I'd like to ask that applies to a few articles I've read. If this has already been addressed, forgive me, but I must question the need to give a citation for a line akin to "though a very small minority may be uncomfortable speaking it". If someone points out a maybe rather than saying "a small minority is uncomfortable speaking Lombard", I see no need for a quote. The sentence might be in need of better wording, but a pointing out a maybe is just that, and demanding a citation of such lines seems nitpicky, and a want of a citation wouldn't take any weight from the passage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakrar16 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

As it is common practice in Wikipedia, you need to cite sources for every statement and especially for the ones that have been challenged. See Wikipedia:REF --SynConlanger (talk) 09:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Naming conventions

In the specialised literature I could not find one reference using overtly the label "Lombard language" (apart from it being or not a language, who cares). Its use here is clearly NNPOV. Check the following:

• Posner, R. (1996). The romance languages. Cambridge University Press.
• Maiden, M., Smith, J. C., & Ledgeway, A. (Eds.). (2010). The Cambridge History of the Romance Languages: Volume 1, Structures. Cambridge University Press.
• Alkire, T., & Rosen, C. (2010). Romance languages: a historical introduction. Cambridge University Press.
• Harris, M., & Vincent, N. (Eds.). (2003). The romance languages. Routledge.
• Marcato, C. (2002). Dialetto, dialetti e italiano. Il mulino.
• Loporcaro, M. (2009). Profilo linguistico dei dialetti italiani (Vol. 275). Laterza.

In Italian, the term "language" (again, without considering the nature of the object in question, just the label) is usually used in administrative orders but there is no source stating that that is the most common usage (see also WP:RELY). It is used in other sources, generally of non-linguistic or non-academic/other nature (see [9]). Both "lombard dialect" and "lombard language" should appear in the article, as per NPOV. --SynConlanger (talk) 09:59, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Confusion between comparing with Italian and comparing Lombard dialects with each other

I removed again this confusing statement, which is suboptimal and unencyclopedic in several ways:

• it gives an approximation of the word "frec" using the (English-like?) pronunciation "frech", which is clearly against WP:PRONUNCIATION
• it states that Lombard itself is a dialect instead of a language, but this entire article calls it a language, starting from the title
• it states that this Lombard dialect varies from town to town, but that's obvious and redundant, because this is the section called "Varieties" and the paragraph immediately preceding this one listed a number of towns as having varieties of it
• after making this claim, it proceeds to compare it with the Italian word "freddo", instead of with other varieties of Lombard
• the "Lombardic region of Valtellina" isn't a thing; Lombardy itself is a region, and Lombardic is not the current adjective for it, while Lombard is
• "local people" does not mean anything, what matters is whether one is speaking the local variety of Lombard, or Italian, or something else
• the whole thing is unsourced, and as such, it should not be reinstated without sources after removal

In other words, that paragraph is flawed in just about every possible way. if Theblogger01 or others intend to restore it once more after it was removed by someone else before me, I urge to fix all of the aforementioned issues before doing so.

In addition, the edit summary with which it was reinstated is misguided, since Lombard is clearly not "a dialect of Italian" and it is of course not "based on Italian grammar". It is a regional language of Italy descended from Latin independently of Italian, as any linguistic tree would and does show (check the article and its sources before making WP:BOLD edits, thanks). LjL (talk) 22:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@LjL:The statement added real examples to the Lombard dialect explanation. The reason it appears non-academic to you is that Lombard has no written standard and most of its varieties are spoken only.

You are correct in that there was confusion in stating that Lombard is a dialect of Italian which is not the case. However, you are incorrect in a few of your comments:

• The example 'frech' (English pronunciation) is a close approximation of what the word sounds like. If you can point to clearer guidelines for words that are not written down in a foreign dialect then that would be helpful.
• It is a fact that dialects spoken in that region use Italian verbs and words. Do not get confused with the extinct Lombardic langauge.
• Lombard is desceneded from Vulgar Latin. The dialects spoken in Lombardy have lots of Italian influences but there are also German and French words used in Lombard. Here's another analysis [10]
• This sentence emphasises small towns and not cities as mentioned in the sentence above. The point is that even small towns a few miles away differ from each other in phrases.
• The Italian word 'freddo' is commonly known and written word and so actually helps to explain the differences.
• Valtellina is a region in Lombardy, here's the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtellina It's near the towns of Sondrio and Morbegno.
• Referring to local people is entirely relevant. Different towns have different Lombard accents and words.
• There are plenty of unsourced sentences in Wikipedia and this information is from someone who is from that area. How do you source human knowledge that isn't in a website or book?

I am happy to amend the statement. Some of your rebuttals are subjective and non-academic. Before we go through another tit for tat on my statement let's see what you actually agree or disagree with. Thank you.

Theblogger01 (talk) 2:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

• I gave you a clearer guideline, it's WP:PRONUNCIATION. Short version: use the International Phonetic Alphabet, not random approximations.
• No, it is not a fact. They use Lombard verbs and words. Sometimes they match Italian ones, sometimes they don't; when they do, it's sometimes because they both derive from the same Latin word, and sometimes because Lombard borrowed from Italian (or Italian borrowed from Lombard). Perfectly normal stuff, but what's your point? And of course I'm not getting confused with the Germanic Lombardic language.
• Yes, I know. Which is why, being descended from Vulgar Latin, and not from Italian, it is not a dialect of Italian, as you seemed to claim.
• Yes, small towns differ in words and phrases, as do big towns. Hardly a big deal. Happens with any dialect continuum. This is an encyclopedia, not a collection of tidbits.
• The Italian word "freddo" is not commonly known by English readers of this encyclopedia, and it is terribly irrelevant when you're comparing varieties of Lombard between one another, and not with Italian.
• I know very well where Valtellina is, and that was of course not my objection. My objection was 1) it's not "Lombardic", it's "Lombard", that's the current English term (didn't you just tell me to avoid confusion with ancient Lombardic?) 2) it's not classified as a region, Lombardy is classified as a region.
• People who are not local but who have learned to speak the relevant variety or dialect or language also use the same words, so "local people" is not what is involved.
• Well, that final part shows you are unfamiliar with Wikipedia. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. That means that all information must be able verified from reliable source; not every sentence on Wikipedia is already sourced, but when someone challenges it, it must be sourced, or left out. If there is human knowledge that is not yet in a book or a (reliable) website, then it does not belong on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not for everything.

I don't see anything academic about that pretty amateur-ish statement that was in the article, and that you readded, nor, honestly, much of it in your response. I linked to a few Wikipedia policies/guidelines, on the other hand, which may be worth a look. LjL (talk) 02:21, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050921094359/http://www.ti.ch/Decs/DC/CDE/ to http://www.ti.ch/DECS/DC/cde/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060101003809/http://www.ti.ch/decs/dc/cde/temi/documentiorali.asp to http://www.ti.ch/decs/dc/CDE/temi/documentiorali.asp
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Phonology section

Hello! My name is Mary and I am a linguistics student currently taking a phonetics course. We were given an assignment involving inputting the phonological features of a language on a Wikipedia page, where it didn't already exist. As you can see by the new section, I found a published document detailing the different consonants and vowels and I filled out the charts accordingly. I am happy to be able to take part in growing and sharing this wonderful language. Thank you Marehubbs (talk) 10:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

@Marehubbs: you must have mistaken general IPA charts intended for several languages for language-specific ones. I can tell, as a native speaker, we do not have all those phonemes. I already edited the vowel section and will proceed for the consonant one too. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:01, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I did this as a project for my Linguistics class, so I understand that there are mistakes. I do not speak Lombard, only a bit of Italian. Thank you for taking the time to make corrections! Buona giornata! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marehubbs (talk • contribs) 14:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

The phonology section seems a little bit disorganized to me, especially the consonant chart. It could definitely be organized more like the standard IPA chart. In addition, it doesn’t distinguish which consonants and vowels belong to which dialects, and which ones are allophones versus distinct phonemes. I think these distinctions are greatly needed, or else readers don’t know which sounds occur in which varieties. At some point I may attempt this myself, but I am a very new contributor and I’m sure everyone would agree that a more experienced and knowledgeable editor would be preferred. MichaelAmpe101 (talk) 14:42, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I am editing it as those charts are not really for Lombard, but were most likely intended for more languages altogether. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:03, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

@Marehubbs and MichaelAmpe101: fixed it. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:27, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Wiktionary in Lombard language

Hi, I'm Gat lombart, I'm from Lombardy and I'm starting a wiktionary in Lombard language. I point out that in the wiktionary there are some appendices that explain Lombard grammar, but just written in Lombard. They are collected in the category incubator:Category: Wt/lmo/Gramatega_lombarda. The most important one is the one that explains the sentence constructions: incubator:Wt/lmo/Appendix:Costruzzion_de_la_fras_in_lombard. Moreover I point out that a new ortography, the New Lombard Ortography, has been gaining ground for about two years on wiki projects in Lombard. Lombard wiktionary is written by using this ortography.

As I am already busy with the wiktionary I will not have time to help you directly, in the translation of the pages, but I will be able to help you to translate some word through the wiktionary itself. You can ask me for the translation of some words by writing it on this page. I hope you can help me to build wiktionary too, since the wiktionary needs users to start. It would also be nice if anyone of you were interested in learning the Lombard language.

If someone wants to add English translations of Lombard words they can do so by writing *ingles: word traslation into english under the model {{Wt/lmo/-trad-}} like in this example: incubator:Wt/lmo/aneda --Gat lombart (talk) 07:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)