Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog (character)/Archive 3

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Suggestion on appearance change through the years

Hi, I may be nitpicking, but in the comparison with Sonic's design in Sonic The Hedgehog and Sonic from Shadow The Hedgehog may confuse people not familiar with the games, stating that thats how Sonic looks in SHADOW The Hedgehog. So I suggest that any one who knows how to work with those programs like Photoshop or similar can take that image and remove the render from Shadow The Hedgehog and insert the one in Sonic profile to avoid confusion on newcomers, to the subject (Sonic is newer to people born later after he started to have his video game series) and, as mentioned could confuse people not familiar with the game Shadow The Hedgehog.--Czin 11:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC) Some completly messed up Sonic,s articile calling him a cat/monster.

The Iblis Trigger

Ok, since this seems to be controversial at the moment, here's what we know:

• Minute long trailer from E3 reveals Silver is looking for the Iblis Trigger, which is implied to be Sonic
• SEGA staff at E3 reveal during demos that Silver has been sent back from the future to stop Sonic. Also, Silver's levels are set in an apocalyptic setting with everything on fire. The earlier trailer reveals the main threat of the game will be the 'Flames of Disaster'. We can safely assume that in Silver's timeline the Flames of Disaster were released.
• A second E3 trailer, this time a minute longer. Silver's dialogue as he seemingly looks at Sonic can this time can be clearly heard as "I've finally found him...the Iblis Trigger!"

With this evidence, I think it's safe to say for now that the article can assume that Sonic is the Iblis Trigger as far as Silver knows and that Silver was sent back to stop Sonic from causing (likely unintentionally) the Flames of Disaster to be released. --HellCat86 17:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

It's speculation for now. Just sit tight and wait for the official details to come out. --Jtalledo (talk) 03:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Eh? You're correct we don't the full story but that's 3 official sources. It's certainly enough to mention in the article and can be changed as needed once the game is released. It's not like just making assumptions off a trailer, SEGA pretty much spelt it out at E3 --HellCat86 00:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it does warrant a mention. On a related note, I removed all the stuff from the previous games that supposedly "hint" at him being the "Iblis Trigger". It amounted to original research. --Jtalledo (talk) 16:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You've completly misinterpreted that section. It wasn't a list of reasons Sonic would be the Iblis Trigger, it was a list of things that imply Sonic's deeds (good and ill) were foretold in some cases and hold alot of weight. The Iblis Trigger happens to fall into that as the most recent event. I'm putting it back. --HellCat86 00:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, unless there are external sources that back up what's said in that section, it's original research. It takes some small statements from the games and draws a conclusion from them. See WP:OR#Synthesis of original research - it's the same basic idea, you take ideas and use them to advance a conclusion about something. --Jtalledo (talk) 11:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The mural is there in Sonic & Knuckles, that's fact. I believe the Japanese manual specifically mentions Knuckles misinterpreting it. The games have also made it clear that Gerald study Echidna culture in his quest to make the Ultimate Lifeform. I don't think it's coincidence that Echidna legend refers to a hedgehog of great importance, than Gerald goes and makes his creation look very similar to it. SA and SA2 is covered in in-game dialogue. The Iblis Trigger stuff, as I've already said, has been spelt out at E3 by people who work for SEGA.--HellCat86 12:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Cite a source for the claims, and it has a place in its article. Otherwise, just going by what is personally seen in the games and drawing a conclusion from that is original research. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the "Iblis Trigger" stuff being there - but drawing a conclusion from observations made in the games is original research and shouldn't be there. --Jtalledo (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• How come Sonic is being called the 'Iblis Trigger', instead of Shadow being it? SHADOW was the one who killed people (or attempted, to say the very least), as a matter of fact threatened to destroy Earth, not Sonic. So why is Silver blaming SONIC for something like this? 65.87.191.22 00:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)-Anonymous

Because Silver is from the future where something terrible has happened and all information he has implies Sonic is ultimately responsible for triggering it. This isn't Silver just deciding to nip back in time and play judge --HellCat86 00:58, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I sort of get it, but oh well...will Sonic go in the Enimies section, if that's the case??? Or is it just me that's hallucinating? Who knows...65.87.191.22 02:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)Anonymous

The "real" name?

• Tries desperately not to laugh*

mmmpph-- ppphg-- BWAHAHAHAH!

I never knew that Sonic had a "Real" name in the comics. If you saw that name in the comics, you'd think that Sonic was a member of a family of royalty!

Honestly, I think it's both kind of cool and wierd. Sorta like you first find out Tails' real full name is "Miles Prower" or when you find out that Billy Blaze's (Commander Keen) full name is "William Joseph Blazkowicz Jr." *sarcasm starts here* Now they'll be telling us that Knuckles has a real name! *sarcasm stops here*

But seriously, it's kind of a mixed feeling finding out that Sonic has a real name.

-Aidepikiw0000 02:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that Sonic realy is shadow2, project Sonic is the real name (maybe)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.200.164.254 (talk • contribs) .

No, the creators would have suggested that, and not only that, I think Shadow was an experiment possibly inspired by a transport that took place before the events of Sonic Adventure or Sonic X.-Aidepikiw0000

Egmont Fleetway Comics

I'm aware that Sonic has taken many forms, but I don't see why the UK's Sonic the Comic, published by Egmont Fleetway, should be omitted from this page if the decidedly dire US Archie comic is included. As such, I'm going to spend a while constructing some information on it and adding it to the page. If there are any objections, please contact me. It would be good if this could be a featured article, like Link. I'm try and clean it up a bit too. Vincentvivi 17:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)Vincentvivi

I think the comic incarnations should be summarized about and there should be links to articles on the comics themselves for detailed information. Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character) was created for this reason. If the Archie comic is mentioned at length in the main Sonic article, then the UK comic deserves equal weight in the article as well. --Jtalledo (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Our article improvement drive

We now have way more references than Link's Featured Article. I'd like to thank everybody in the last fortnight who has added references to the article. We all deserve a pat on the back.

However, we need only one more citation and the article won't be listed in Articles with unsourced statements. It relates to the statement,

* The NBA team the [[Seattle SuperSonics]] is often [[nickname]]d the "Hedgehogs" in reference to this character.{{citation needed}}

Does anyone know about this? I have done two google searches [1] [2] and all it appears to turn up are mirrors of wikipedia. In other words, no one ever mentioned them by this before it appeared in Wikipedia. To me this smells is a bit fishy. Should we get rid of it? I'm an Aussie, so I don't exactly follow NBA. --DavidHOzAu 14:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked a couple of NBA fans about this, and they said they've never heard of it. One said when he saw the name he always thought about Sonic the Hedgehog, but had never heard anyone else refer to them that way. Mrjeff 16:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an NBA fan, but I've lived in Seattle for over ten years and seen plenty of local sports coverage, and I've never once heard them referred to as the Hedgehogs, or even heard any references to Sega in the coverage. I once heard a local sportscaster lead into his report with something like 'The Sonics couldn't grab the gold ring tonight', which might have been a Sonic reference, but that's as close as I've heard. So saying that the Sonics are referred to as the Hedgehogs at all seems dubious; saying that they're often referred to that way seems downright absurd. Kickaha Ota 18:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've found ONE LINK ONLY relating the SuperSonics and "Hedgehogs". So, that sentence is not so accurate, think I'll just remove it and try the GA again! igordebraga ≠ 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Great, I'm glad to see that citation needed finally gone. However, I noticed that the article was still listed in Articles with unsourced statements, so it seems I missed one. It was the reference to Stay Sonic, and I've since added the reference. The article is finally clean. --DavidHOzAu 02:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, you guys. Paul Haymon 07:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sonic's height, weight, etc.

Someone recently added additional information about Sonic's height, weight and birthday to the opening paragraph. I didn't want to make judgements about whether or not this belongs, so I just cleaned up the formatting a little. But it seems like having this info for two different timestreams -- especially in the opening paragraph -- might be just a little on the fancrufty side. Perhaps the American stats should be moved to the page for the Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character) page? Kickaha Ota 19:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they should be. Because AoStH, Archie/SatAM do expand on the western concept of Sonic. There is a seperate storyline between the Japanese and the west rooted from the very differences in the very first manuals of Sonic games. Western games have acknowledged the three titles listed above and for that reason I think they effectively have proven some rooting within the western game elements. So to ignore areas of importance noted in the three titles is to again arguably ignore Sonic's gaming world developed in the west. Granted its probably not necessary to go into things like the the great war and such, but just basic information about Sonic for both his Japanese and western counterparts. SonicMobius 23:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Deletions to 'Friends'

Several paragraphs were recently deleted from the 'Friends' section ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sonic_the_Hedgehog_%28character%29&diff=58649168&oldid=58645228 ) . This strikes me as the sort of change that shouldn't be made without discussion -- especially since the section is now so short that the Amy Rose pic extends into the 'Enemies' section on many screens, creating a very awkward look. I would revert the change, but I'm very new at this and I'm afraid I'd screw it up. Kickaha Ota 21:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll revert them. The article clearly says "this article is about the video game character. For other uses, see Sonic the Hedgehog. For the Archie comic version, see Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character)." Apparently the information was removed by SonicMobius because it wasn't "in common", funnily enough, with Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character). At best, that rationale only applies to Sonic the Hedgehog series, and at worst, not at all. --DavidHOzAu 07:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Clearly there's an honest disagreement here about what the focus and bounds of this article should be; but that's the sort of disagreement that should be sorted out by discussion and consensus, not by undiscussed substantial edits. Kickaha Ota 17:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic vs. Mario

An anonymous editor recently added a 'Sonic vs. Mario' section. It's interesting, but I'm not sure how accurate or NPOV it is. It would be better if its assertions were backed up by sources. Kickaha Ota 17:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

While a new section like this might shed some light on Sonic's history a little, I think it's already been discussed earlier in the article. Whatever the case, information like that belongs under the history section. --DavidHOzAu 00:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Human Sonic

The following passage made me smile:

"Another version of Sonic worth mentioning is him in human form, as illustrated by official character designer, Yuji Uekawa. This version was only depicted in artwork and is not planned to be released in other media, such as games or television. Seeing how Yuji Uekawa helped design for the Billy Hatcher series, this depiction clearly resembles those characters. Predating this, however, was a Sonic the Comic story which featured Sonic transformed into a human version of himself via a virtual reality machine."

And illustrated on the right of this paragraph was that artwork Uekawa made for the 2001 edition of the Tokyo Game Show... and described as a "human version of Sonic". I'm really sick to read that all the times and by the same way sick of mentionning it all the times: this is NOT a human version of Sonic! This is only an illustration showing a child with a Sonic haircut. I even bet it doesn't have any relation with Sonic (except that haircut). So, to conclude, I doubt that artwork should be used to illustrate a "human version" of Sonic. And on top of this, the person who uploaded this image grabbed it from my website (Sonic Art Archive) and "forgot" to mention the source. Also, may I add that I wrote everything there was to know about that artwork into the news of the website. But I'm sad that a few people effectively read them (yes, I know I tend to write too much unnecessary stuff but... there do are some interesting infos). Dioxaz 19:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

If it's not Sonic, then it shouldn't be on this page. Besides, that image is dangerous because unsourced images are enough to stop an article from becoming a good article. Consider that content removed; Someone can replace it with a more suitable image to illustrate the alternative renderings of Sonic. (Note to editors: Anything that illustrates the point is fine, but please do not put the Sonic Sally image there because we've already voted on that, and the consensus is not to use it on this article.) --DavidHOzAu 00:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Bias to Sonic Team/SoJ in terms of what is canon

The issue of my concern with the main Sonic file is that it promotes bias as to what Sonic is, and what is canon when that is a disputed topic. The main article of Sonic based mostly on Sonic Team's expansion of the Japanese storyline. Then it calls western storylines "unofficial" or "spinoffs" of the SoJ story (which is incorrect for reasons I’ll state later). Through doing this, the article implies to those who are using it as a basis for understanding Sonic, that the other universes aren't official when that is under dispute for a number of them. Now, for many people I'm sure they don't see it as a problem, because as far as they're concerned what is Japanese is "canon". it depicts the true Sonic, all other universes were based off of it and that the storyline was created by Sonic Team.

At the start of Sonic, he had a Japanese storyline and a western storyline for most if not all of his games in the genisis. The differences in storyline are evident in the fact the manuals contain different elements and are not word for word translations of the other by a long shot. The AoStH, the SatAM cartoon, the fleetway and the Archie comics have expanded on what was put inside of the American/European manuals. To go further, SEGA has specifically recognized the US' attempts to expand on the western storyline by incorporating elements from the cartoons and comic into games aimed mostly to the western region with titles such as Sonic Spinball, Mean Bean Machine, etc.

Not every Sonic fan believes that Sonic Team developing the games since the beginning is enough to deem them as more canon than what the western story established. The SoJ storyline at times contradicted programming in minor ways, others feel that because the western manual arrived first, it should be considered more canon than Sonic Team. There are many arguments that come and go on this, so to stick to the point: what is canon it is a debated issue, and usually is decided on an individual level by what storyline the fan ultimately prefers.

The second thing is the issue with referring to SoJ as the canon of all the other storylines is that of course all other storylines would have had to have made an effort to base itself off of the SoJ story. Again to stress this, the western stories of AoStH, SatAM, the Archie and Fleetway Sonic comics... they are not based off of the Japanese storyline. They are based off of the western storyline that was placed within the American manuals. These manuals came of course from the same source as the Japanese storyline did: SEGA. Some will argue that Americans simply translated the Japanese manual, but if you read them both they're not a word to word translation, The American storyline came first, and it introduced elements (such as Robotnik) that the Japanese didn't acknowledge. This made people wonder if the name had any relationship to the Japanese storyline at all for some time.

Anyway, one could also argue the idea that the western storylines are mere spinoffs of the storylines placed in the western game manuals. However, in a few cases such as with AoStH, SatAM and Archie. There are in fact games (Mean Bean Machine and Spinball) that recognize the efforts made to expand on the western storyline. Granted not all western oriented storylines have been recognized by the western canon, but a few have been.

SonicMobius 20:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic's backstory is pretty fubarred, as is the whole Sonic universe. I'm not sure where you see that this article has bias regarding Sega of Japan though. Although it's been referred to before, see Link (Legend of Zelda) for a good example of what a video game character article should look like. --Jtalledo (talk) 20:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To a certain degree, I think it's not surprising that this page has leans towards the Japanese backstory, since a lot of the American backstory details come from the Archie Comics, and the Archie Comics version of the character already has its own page. Kickaha Ota 20:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Reverted the page - this really merits additional discussion, especially since the article is under review for good article status. The Archie character page was created for good reason - while there have been references to the comics and television programs, there really hasn't been anything concrete in the main games series to connect Sonic to any of his spin-offs. There's already enough references to Sonic in other forms of media on this page as well. Again, Sonic is a video game character first and his incarnations in video games should be what the article focuses on. --Jtalledo (talk) 21:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

For one thing, elements of AoStH, SatAM and Archie have been in Sonic games (Spinball and Mean Bean Machine). Ontop of that they are based on the western gaming storyline. So the western storyline of the games is closely connected with the comic, SatAM and AoStH. Yes we're talking about a video game charachter, but the western games have acknowledged AoStH, SatAM and Archie as expanding the series by incorporating elements shown in them. So they are very much so responsible for expanding one's understanding of the western storyline. To deem it a spinoff of a version of Sonic that has incorportated it in games... is to arugably say the western storyline is uncanon, which is an opinionated statement. SonicMobius 22:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that the original creators wishes should be considered canon. The Western storylines deserve mention but to be fair they came at a time when things were localised alot more. If we take the Western manuals/games as canon then Amy is Sally and the SatAM characters exist in the games. Since Sonic was a Japanese creation, I think it's better sticking to the Japanese storylines and acknowledging there was some global difference until recent games went with a unified story. --HellCat86 21:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That is YOUR (capitalizing to stress the word, sorry if it comes off as yelling) opinion though. Your opinion on what defines canon. But not every fan agrees with it. If we take the western as a canon, then there are two girls named Sally. One of whom could easily be "Amy" as was noted in the Archie comics that have expanded on the series. Hence, looking this over, Sally is a mere alias for Amy, that, much like Rosy the Rascal in the SoJ storyline is rarely if ever used.

And the original creators of what may I ask? Sonic's storyline and world? Sonic Team lacked much of a say in this until they hit the saturn era, by then the megadrive era that founded the universes had ended. SonicMobius 23:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see where your gripe exactly is. It would help if you listed all the parts (using quotes from the article) that you dispute as being biased. --Jtalledo (talk) 00:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Please reffer down to the bulleted list. SonicMobius 15:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, the games came first and as such are THE canon. The comics, shows, etc are just others takes on the story. Right now the global continuity has reached a point where it says "Ok, the Japanese history is THE canon but we'll show some respect by acknowledging things like the Robotnik name in some way". I'm personally jaded because I see alot of fans (ESPECIALLY of the Archie comic) who argue the other continuities deserve equal (in some cases superiour) respect. Alot of articles on Wikipedia break down things by different interpretations and localisation, for instance articles covering the Transformers franchise. Most people seem content to take the same stance with this article and I for one agree with it.--HellCat86 00:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree with it. The games came first, that's not disputed. But

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_1_US/EU_Manual

If you read this manual, it is not the same as...

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_1_JP_Manual

This. Oh and might I point out again, the the US/EU manual came out first?

and this is the tip of the iceberg, the differences became broader as the games continued to be made during the gensis. SatAM, AoStH, and Archie are all based on the first link provided. Not only that, but western storylines have actually recognized how they've expanded the western storyline by putting a number of elements in game like spinball and mean bean machine. Notice SatAM, AoStH and and Archie aren't every Sonic universe from the west. That's because again I'm stressing the fact that only these three had elements of their titles recognized by the western games.

So I am not saying by a long shot that the games aren't canon. But at the same time the western storyline (reffer to the western instruction manual) have been officially expanded by the comics and cartoons I mentioned. So to ignore those when explaining Sonic is of course trying to sweep under the rug everything that the US games have recognized as canon expansion of their series-- even if its origins were not in a game.

Sonic Team is doing the exact same thing SatAM, AoStH and Archie set out to do. The only difference is that they are expanding the storyline put in the Japaese instruction manual, (again if you need to see it, the Japanese version of Sonic's storyline in the bottom link). SonicMobius 01:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You keep referring to Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball and Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine - two games which are of debatable significance to the game's continuity having little way in plot that affects the rest of the series. Yes, the storyline of Sonic originally was expanded by the comics and cartoons, since the original games had little in the way of a plot. But since then, the games have had a more coherent storyline and established canon that can and should be referred to as the focus of this article. As for manuals, they're not a very good reliable of info, especially some of the western ones. Some versions of the Sonic CD manual erroneously referred to Amy Rose as Princess Sally for instance. And given the old manuals you're referring to, Sega sometimes seems to retcon details from older games, just look at how Sonic's appearance has changed over the years and how the references to his "old home planet" of Mobius have disappeared. --Jtalledo (talk) 02:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

you keep saying "The games" as though the Sonic Team games meant to expand on both the western and Japanese storyline when it isn't. The Sonic Team games have a more coherent storyline, but they're not aiming to expand on the western storyline at all. Sonic Team games are clearly meant to expand on the SoJ version of the Sonic storyline embedded in instruction manuals long ago. That has no bearing on the western continuity.

And, you base the idea that Amy's name is erroneously Sally. On what grounds? The SoJ manual has the name of the pink hedgehog "Amy Rose"? And to repeat myself again, The comics which expand on the western games reffer to her as Amy. But Sally is among her aliases. That means like Rosy the Rascal, "Sally" isn't anything more than an unused, alternative alias that's reasons for creation stemmed from the SatAM.

And again, they're not retconning anything. Mobius has ‘disappeared’, yes. But that's because Earth was the name of the planet in the Japanese storyline. It is very evident the newer games are expanding on things that have been noted in the Japanese storyline. Sonic's change of appearance can be attributed to physical growth as well.

4.249.27.120 03:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Again, it would help immensely if you would just list every point of contention you have with the article here, with quotes from the article itself. That way we can figure out where the alleged bias in the article is. Otherwise, we're just having a debate about the Sonic universe that clearly belongs on some Sonic fan forum. --Jtalledo (talk) 03:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sonic the Hedgehog (ソニック・ザ・ヘッジホッグ, Sonikku za Hejjihoggu?) is a video game character who appears in a series of games released by Sega, as well as numerous spin-off comics,

Spin-off? The western game storyline clearly has accepted it [the comics] with their exclusive games, and its a spin-off? To what SoJ? Its not a spin off anymore thn Sonic Team's games are to the western verse. The comics seek to expand on the western storyline.

• FRENDS - [Charachters exclusive to the Soj top tier storyline. No Sally, no Rotor or Bunnie or Mina. I also place my bets that if I did add them, they'd be removed.]

• A verse that extended the western storyline is of course called 'alternate' in the article. That means the focus is not just on explaining Ssonic's two gaming storylines, but his Japanese storyline.

• The latest animated Sonic television series, Sonic X, is an anime that features Sonic being transported from his world to the human world. Like the other television series, it has an original storyline not present in any of the games, however it does at some points adapt the storylines from the Sonic Adventure games. Sonic is voiced by Jun'ichi Kanemaru in the Japanese version, and by Jason Griffith in the English language version.

Again, AoSth, and SatAM have had elements of their titles put in games. Specifically western games because they set out to expand on the wstern storyline.

• Sonic's home planet is Earth, although the name it is referred by has varied slightly depending on minor regional differences. Sonic lives at a location known as South Island during Sonic 1, and (according to early written material from Sonic Team) was originally born on Christmas Island.

1. Western Sonic lives in Knothole (which is explained to be according to the US comic map in North America).

2. Sonic grew up before the coup in Mobotropolis.

• Sonic is a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog with the ability to run at the speed of sound, a talent which forms a major part of the gameplay of the series.[2] He is 15 years old,[3] 100 centimeters (3 ft 3 in) tall, and weighs 35 kilograms (77 lb).[4] His birthday is June 23rd.

Why was his western physical stats removed? The only thing given are again his Japanese stats. Which imply that's there is bias to the SoJ version of Sonic in this article.

more will probably be added later. SonicMobius 15:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We've already discussed this: Archive 1#Sonic and Sally Picture and Archive 2#Focus on the_games/Reverting edits. yawn. --DavidHOzAu 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No yawning at the editors. :) Kickaha Ota 18:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Still not sure where the gripe is here. By the same logic, characters from Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and Mario Brothers should also give equal creedence to characterizations in the films, television series, cartoons and comic books, but that isn't the case at all. That's because their incarnations in other media are spin-offs, alternative representations of the characters outside of the game continuity. And just because little elements from the TV series may have been introduced to some Sonic games, that doesn't mean they're on the same level of canon as the game. Mortal Kombat's Kano's origin was retconned to now be an Australian because he was characterized as such in the original film, but that doesn't mean that plots of the films are just as canon as the games.

As it is, there have been no Sonic games that have taken place in Knothole, or share the plot of SatAM or the Archie series. As for the old manuals, the storylines you refer to as being "Sega of Japan" exclusive have largely been folded into the American continuity as well. We've been through this before - arguments like these are why Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie_character) was created. It's way too confusing (and erroneous, considering that Sonic was a video game character first) to mix Sonic's continuities as if they're on equal footing. Representations in other media should be given their own section or sections, or in drastic cases, their own article. --Jtalledo (talk) 19:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hold on they don't share a plot with SatAM or the comic? I'm going to start quoting things from the western games:

" Crush Dr. Robotnik!

Dr. Ivo Robotnik, the mad scientist, is snatching innocent animals and turning them into evil robots! Only one tough dude can put an end to the demented scientist's fiendish scheme. It's Sonic, the real cool hedgehog with the spiked haircut and power sneakers that give him

Spin through space, loop 'til you're dizzy, save the animals and become the super hero. Be Sonic! Be atomic! "

Note how Ivo turns innocent animals into evil Robots. It doesn't say he "put them in robots" it says he turned them into robots. This brings to light the plot point of the roboticizer a.k.a the Veg-O-machine. An issue that is heavily emphasized in SatAM and Archie. So Sonic and his friends trying to stop Robotnik, and saving the fellow furrs in his adventures with his friends have no relation to this? I don't think so.

lets move on to Sonic 2.

"Find the Chaos Emeralds!

Miles "Tails" Prower, the fox, can't sit still when Sonic's around. Ever since Miles was a baby fox, he's dreamed of being like Sonic. He loves to run after Sonic, waving his 2 tails behind him, trying to keep up with his hero!

Mostly, Sonic lets him trail along. But sometimes, just to show off, Sonic explodes in a burst of super speed and leaves him behind. But Miles doesn't give up. He whirls his tails like a helicopter rotor and takes off flying until he catches up!

All the animals call Miles by his nickname, "Tails", because of his 2 special tails. And one day they saw an astonishing feat...

They were all together in the forest, watching Sonic perform. Sonic would run, spin and jump in his Super Spin Attack. Then "Tails" would whirl like a turbo engine and blast off in his Super Dash Attack. What a showoff!

Suddenly, "Tails" just couldn't help himself. He took a running start, curled up his tails, and - whoosh - he was spinning like Sonic!

But now something frightening is happening. Sonic's friends are disappearing. In their place, nasty metal robots are popping up all over the island. The mad scientist Dr. Robotnik is at it again!

This time, Robotnik's planning a global disaster. He needs workers to create a doomsday machine that can take over the world. So he's trapping all the animals, turning them into robots, and forcing them to build his ultimate weapon, the Death Egg!

Robotnik now rules the factories, refineries and cities! He's grabbed control of everything - except the 7 Chaos Emeralds. These magnificent gems are believed to hold exceptional powers. With them, Robotnik could have the entire world in his grasp. And he'd never let go!

The Chaos Emeralds are buried somewhere on the island. Only one tough dude with spiky hair has the speed to find them first!

Help Sonic stop the devious scheme of the demented scientist! Spin like a speedball through space. Grab Power Sneakers and loop 'til you're dizzy. Twirl over twisting speedways and rocket through tunnels. Balance and blast across a bubbling ocean of oil!

Find the Emeralds, free the animals, and squash Robotnik forever! "

In SatAM/Archie, Robotnik has taken over the city of Mobotropolis, which the team have made an effort to fix. Does that contradict the plotline? No. It says in this manual he has taken over cities, they respond to the production of Robotik's factories/refineries too. Both also create a plotline concerning doomsday/the Death Egg.

In response to titles that had been created to expand on what was written above, the western oriented games made Spinball and Mean Bean Machine. Games with Scratch and Grounder, a generic plot of Robotnik's Sonic has to foil as is in AoStH.

In Spinball, Robotnik is said to have a device he uses to turn the furries into bots calling it the Veg-O-Machine (a.k.a the roboticizer). The games recognize these plotlines and in turn these plotlines are embedded within the history of these three titles. No doubt about it.

Now as it stands, I can quote more instruction manuals and compare the storylines. If quoting these makes the discussion too long and whatnot, then let me know.

As for the SoJ storylines, they are not largely embedded into the storyline, and were/are generally put in for promotional purposes. Not only that but most of storylines of the comic for instance don't revolve consistenly around anything set in those storylines with the exception of charachter redesigns. In SatAM and AoStH, there were virtually no SoJ exclusive material because SEGA took greater efforts to localize materials in their games, and because Sonic Team wouldn't actually have a choice in what storyline they wanted to follow in the games they produced until after the Megadrive era had ended. By then SatAM and AoStH were well over.

So, far as I'm concerned, yes... Sonic was a videogame charachter first. But in the west his game storyline, as I've said before is different in the Japanese. To take it a step further, Sonic's western gaming storyline (as in the one seen in the first instruction manuals) came first, if you want to start using chronology as the basis of signifficance and truth. The comics, the SatAM and the AoStH all display elements that show their storylines have at the very least been recognized by western games. Which means again, to tell the story of Sonic that began in the western instruction manuals, you've got to look at the titles they've recognized for expanding on the series.

SonicMobius 21:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand. There exists an entire seperate article for the most major Western interpretation of the character, why not just put the info there? This is why I hate Archie fans, because they place too much importance in that damn comic. I grew up reading the UK title Sonic the Comic but I accept that as a spin-off take on the character and not proper continuity.--HellCat86 23:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The Archie continunity is a small sliver of Sonic's overall history. For all intents and purposes, all the information reguarding Archie (and all the other spinoffs), should go in their respected articles. However, Sonic was a videogame character originally, created by the Japanese - therefore, it is obvious to me that the information should be bias towards that. Do you see the article for Mario being faulted for largely ignoring the comics and TV series? Not really. They are mentioned in passing, as they should be. BlazeHedgehog 23:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree, there is no bias except instances where SonicMobius recently added bias to the article. I quote from the disambiguation: This article is about the video game character. For other uses, see Sonic the Hedgehog. For the Archie comic version, see Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character). We split the content up to avoid confusion as was pointed out to us by the peer reviews we have had. See Wikipedia:Peer review/Sonic the Hedgehog (character) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Peer review/Sonic the Hedgehog (character). I for one think that WP:PR and WP:CVGPR are were not wrong when they point out how an article can be improved, and we've done what they asked: we've discussed the spinoffs as the stuff they are, spinoffs, and used Wikipedia:Summary style to point people to the article about Archie since it is so extensive. What's more, we have Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie comic) and Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character), and it isn't that hard to contribute to the right article. I suggest SonicMobius reads this article and tries to be more like what it describes as "Universal Sonic Fans" to avoid all bias. --DavidHOzAu 00:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay I don't think anyone's getting it. Yes this article is about a video game charachter. We've been through that a zillion times now. But the information in the western manuals are different from those of the Japanese. And to understand Sonic as a gaming charachter, you have to provide the information of both storylines that were present within instruction manuals which were intended to expand on a plot for the series. Not only that, but if you're going to use Sonic Team's games as a canon expansion of the series, when they didn't have much of a say in those things until the Saturn era, then I feel titles the western Sonic games have recognized as expanding their series should be recognized too. Yes its in a different medium, but it's signifficance is in the fact that it ultimately allows fans to have a broader understanding of what the western storyline.

The information within the western instruction manuals is just as related to explaining Sonic's world as the Japanese manuals, and all Sonic Team games based off of them. The only reason why I felt the need to note AoStH, SatAM/Archie is because these are titles in which the western games have actually adapted into their continuity. The western gaming storyline has shown signs of respecting them as a continuation of the series. The bias emerges within this article because..

If Sonic the hedgehog (charachter) was a disambiguation page for all of the Sonic titles, there wouldn't be a problem. But when you click this, the first thing you get is an article with information that is very much so focused on expanding on SoJ's Sonic. So if I were example a newbie fan trying to learn about Sonic and I bumped into this, I'd walk out thinking the SoJ storyline is the only canon. Because the western storyline and all storylines that expand it (despite the fact the western storyline was even delivered to the public first) are considered in the article a spinoffs to Japan's Sonic or just put on the back burner entirely. This article has the potential to breed fans who don't understand two canon storylines were made since Sonic one and the history surrounding both. You leave them feeling the Japanese is the only canon, because that's the primary thing associated with Sonic in the article. Now, you may have your own criteria as to what storyline is more canon than the other but that's just the thing! Its YOUR opinion. And your are placing your ideas on what defines canon on everybody else-- and they run with it as if it's factual. Is it their faults? No. This place is supposed to produce facts. Instead it produces opinions biased to the SoJ fandom. and while Sonic was made by Japanese people, it was developed in America making it a western product. And even if that weren't true, ultimately the western story came first and is arguably the original. We could argue till we're blue in the face which of the two canons is more canon, but in the end it is our opinion and we're simply here to give facts.

No, I totally get it. Note, I said, "Sonic was a videogame character originally, created by the Japanese - therefore, it is obvious to me that the information should be bias towards that." Personally, the Japanese plots are far more detailed and far more interesting than the american manuals. Not only that, but in Sonic X, when they show how Sonic and Tails met, they more or less adapt the Japanese Sonic 2 story. (Sonic flew to Westside Island on his airplane, the Tornado, etc.) This wasn't changed for the 4KIDS dub as far as I knew it to match the American manuals. Therefore, technically, one could assume the Japanese storylines are now the official, world-wide cannon for the games. BlazeHedgehog 20:28, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly how much of my response did you read anyway? I mean, if you're going to respond you can at least respond back to what I had said previously. I'll for that reason repeat myself again.

" and while Sonic was made by Japanese people, it was developed in America making it a western product. And even if that weren't true, ultimately the western story came first and is arguably the original. "

And to be frank,this isn't the place to discuss which verse is better. You may think they're more detailed and intersting. That's fine. But that doesn't do more than state your opinionated basis for why one of the two canons is more canon than the other. People want facts. Yes Sonic X adapts the Japanese storyline, so of course they'd focus more on the Japanese's take on how they met. The series itself wasn't changed to match the US manuals, yes, but how could that be an issue when the storyline, charachters and world are so different that in order to do that, they'd have to literally make a new cartoon? Why the heck is Sonic X, even being used to define what is and isn't canon? SonicMobius 01:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You speak exclusively on technicalities, though. Sonic 1, for all intents and purposes, was developed in Japan. Sonic 2 was developed in America - only because Yuji Naka was unhappy with Sega of Japan's policies at the time (however, he was enticed to join Sega of America's STI). Sonic 2 was developed as a joint venture between Sega of America and the Japanese Sonicteam; however, Sonicteam still had the final say, and after Sonic 2, Sonic 3 & K was developed almost exclusively by Sonicteam as a whole (ignoring music, at least). Further supporting my point is Sonic Adventure, which directly references the Japanese manual's story for Sonic 3 (Sonic and Tails discuss the history of the Floating Island, including the development of the Master Emerald, and the "Terrible Force" contained within it - which eventually became known as Chaos). The American "plotlines" were devised in an era when staying true to the original vision of a product wasn't required - when American artists would be brought in to re-draw box artwork because they thought the Japanese art style would alienate gamers. When Sonic CD's entire soundtrack was replaced because Sega of America didn't think "Japanese Techno-Pop" would appeal to their demographic. Those stories were written just so they could be written, to make the franchise appear as American as possible. However, times have changed - and as of Sonic Adventure, much of the Japanese mythos has taken over and dominated Sonic's history. And when you consider the Japanese version of it all is a far more rich history than the American one, I can see why. BlazeHedgehog 02:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to what BlazeHedgehog has said to SonicMobius above:

• The difference between American manuals and Japanese manuals have largely disappeared. i.e. there is no difference anymore. The American now is the same as the Japanese. Period. There is only the international story.
• In regards to the previous point about not discussing both localizations... we do. That's what the section on Sonic's home planet is, which by the way is the only notable difference between the localizations.
• We are using information from both the American and Japanese manuals, as per the references section.
• The games always use the term "Earth" now. Sonic Team is not going to contradict the story of Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 any time soon, so the likelihood of them using the term "Mobius" is next to nonexistant, especially for a professional game company like Sonic Team Ltd.
• Localization differences are now nothing more than an imaginary object of the mind. per BlazeHedgehog below
• Continuing to perpetuate this discussion is harmful to our efforts to become a WP:GA. (See also WP:POINT and WP:NPOV.) per Kickaha Ota.
• Cite your sources, and your additions about localizations are more likely to stay in the article.
• You will want to read WP:NPOV#Giving "equal validity" and WP:NPOV#Undue weight before we continue.
• We're going to have make another Archive soon because this section is getting close to the 32kb mark.

In summary, a localization that has been scrapped for 10 years now is not notable, especially when more recent information contradicts it. --DavidHOzAu 02:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't quite say "Localization differences are now nothing more than an imaginary object of the mind." - both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2, at the very least, suffer from a somewhat poor localization/translation process in which a lot of the dialogue is changed. Not so much so that the overall scope of the plot is lost, but enough to where certain scenes have almost completely different dialogue. I unfortunately don't have specific examples on me right now, but I recall discussing it on a forum years ago when the Sonic Adventure games were still new. However, this has dissapeared in more recent games like Sonic Battle, which came with english language options even in the Japanese release; the only real differences in the Japanese and English versions of Sonic Battle concerns certain characters tendency to swear - for example, Rouge calling Eggman a "Bastard" in one scene was removed from the American release. BlazeHedgehog 03:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the points made by DavidHOzAu, with one major exception: "Continuing to perpetuate this discussion is harmful to our efforts to become a WP:GA." Making undiscussed changes to the article at this point could very well do that. Continuing to have a reasoned discussion on the Talk page will not -- or if it does, then the GA process has gone seriously off the rails. Certainly, good articles are the result of cooperation and consensus, and that means discussing before making substantial changes. But if people feel chilled from even discussing making changes to the article for fear of offending some unseen GA reviewer, then the terrorists have already won the GA process has done more harm than good. Kickaha Ota 04:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Umm.. What,s Soj

Length of lead paragraphs...

...could do with some improvement. They need to be longer and broader. For instance, yesterday I fleshed out the introduction of Sonic the Hedgehog series and it now describes why the series is notable to an outsider. (in my opinion anyway.) We need to do more or less the same here. Why is Sonic notable? At the moment, it looks like the only notable thing about him are his stats: age, height, and weight. I know that WP:LEAD suggest four paragraphs for article of this size, but that's probably pushing it. How about we aim for two paragraphs of similar size to the series' page, or even for only one paragraph about the size of the nice long ones we have further down the article? --DavidHOzAu 09:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. The info taken out can be placed elsewhere on the page. --Jtalledo (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. However, the stats are a bit tricky. Exactly which section can the stats could appear in without breaking the flow of the article? Ideally, we should make/use an infobox so that stats can be put below the character picture. (We could do that with other characters, too.) Any suggestions for a suitable template? (Expansion is progressing nicely, with Igordebraga holding the honors for the first edits!) --DavidHOzAu 06:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it could go somewhere under the "Character" section. I don't think there are any statboxes that apply directly to video game characters. --Jtalledo (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There is one template, maybe we can do one for Sonic. One thing we need in the intro is to CITE THE CREATORS! If Link and Mario reference Miyamoto, Knux refers to Yuda, and Tails to Yamaguchi, we need Naka and Ohshima. igordebraga ≠ 18:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This template is usable, but the problem is, it doesn't include specific variables for stuff like height, weight, etc. --Jtalledo (talk) 18:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic is not a living person, so things like height, weight, age, etc, are not really necessary. Fields like creator, debut, latest apparition, other names, nicknames, etc, are more important for a fictional character. -- ReyBrujo 19:57, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

True. We still need to find a place to retain the physical stats though. The "Character" section still seems like a likely place. --Jtalledo (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest using the Template:General CVG character template in the introduction, and then either creating a table or just using prose to give information about his physical traits. -- ReyBrujo 20:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. --Jtalledo (talk) 20:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a start. (see below right.) I have created {{Sonic character}} for use with the template. I think I'll go replace the current one now.

Sonic the Hedgehog
'Sonic the Hedgehog' character
Caption
First game	Sonic the Hedgehog
Created by	Naoto Ohshima

Feel free to discuss different orderings to the fields, I might have them mixed up. Speaking of which, what does everyone think of a |url= field to an off-site profile? --DavidHOzAu 01:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced Sonic's image with a free one (it is not possible to use Fair use images at Talk pages), so it is used for demonstration purposes only. I like the infobox, although I believe there are some data that I do not really like. In example, BMI is a human statistics, you can't apply it on animals. Other than that, the other data can be considered useful. Are you sure it is not too tall that will mess the article? -- ReyBrujo 01:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's too big. At 1024x768, it crowds a good part of the page and some of the data is kind of extraneous. The attacks and super sections can be explained as prose in the rest of the article. The abilities section can have short description in it, with details being in the article. As for the free use image here - lol. :D --Jtalledo (talk) 01:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of artist, species, bmi, and merged the voiceactors. How does it look now? --DavidHOzAu 02:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I like it, but it's still a bit tall. Have you considered a two-column layout? It might even work well as a three-column layout, letting it occupy the full width of the screen at the very start of the "Character" section. The leftmost column could be just the pic and caption, the center column could be the real-world stuff (artists, voice actors, etc.), and the rightmost column could be the in-universe stuff. Kickaha Ota 04:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll give it a try.--DavidHOzAu 06:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Two columns

Okay, I'm editing this section right now. Information may change rapidly as the layout progresses. --DavidHOzAu 06:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic the Hedgehog
First game	Sonic the Hedgehog	Space for picture here Sonic's appearance on his 15th anniversary
Game series	Sonic the Hedgehog
Creator(s)	Naoto Ohshima
Voice actor	en: Jason Griffith jp: Junichi Kanemaru
In-Universe Information {{Sonic character			age=15	birthday=June 23	born=Christmas Island	super=Super Sonic	attacks=Homing Attack, Spin Dash }}

There. This is just two columns, I don't know how to possibly balance three columns. A good place for this would be beside the TOC. --DavidHOzAu 03:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I would see if it is possible to shrink a bit more the columns. Test the box in 800x600, which is still one of the most used screen configurations to see how it looks. In 1024x768 it covers almost a third. -- ReyBrujo 03:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Well any smaller and the stuff won't be legible. Generally, the two-column table is as high as the image and the caption. Reducing the amount of rows on the left only increases the individual row heights. I think the only place we *could* put a two-column table is beside the TOC. If you are talking about the width of the single column table, that's hardwired by {{General CVG character}} to be 23em. I could add a 'width' parameter to it (defaulting to 23em)... --DavidHOzAu 05:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Done. --DavidHOzAu 05:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

GA failed

For the following reasons :

• In A trailer for the forthcoming Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 game) implies that Sonic may perhaps be the legendary entity referred to by some as the 'Iblis Trigger'. Information from E3 2006 reveals Silver the Hedgehog referring to him as such, with Silver being a time traveller who has been sent back in time to stop Sonic from causing an unknown tragedy. try to remove the time mentioned (like say that a trailer for the game ... shows that ...) because we want time-free facts.
• Needs loads more citations (at least 1 for each non-cited paragraph, for now).
• The section Game specific abilities should be compelling prose instead of lists or be in a specific linked-to page.
• ... while Dark Sonic just destroys his enemies no questions asked. should remove the POV no questions asked phrase.
• Refer to WP:LEAD to adapt the lead section.

Altough, the text flows and its easy to understand and well-balanced. Lincher 03:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• The problem with saying the trailer shows that is that technically it doesn't. It's one piece in the puzzle. It's a SEGA staff member in the cited demo play of the game who says so. The trailer itself just puts it into context of the game. --HellCat86 03:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Brainstorming

Let's try to work out how to tackle these issues head on. They are listed above, and numbered below with appropriate links:

1. Time-free facts.
2. Cite your sources.
3. Do not use an embedded list without links.
4. Stick to the facts.
5. Size of lead section.
6. Partially cited information is not fully cited.^{[wikilink needed]}

Suggestions? --DavidHOzAu 05:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What I think they are referring to in (2) is that the later half of the article is relatively citation free. --DavidHOzAu 12:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that it is entirely possible to make citations to the game without something like {{cite game}}, but that doesn't exist yet. I honestly thought that sentence in the references section would have been sufficient for citing material from games, but apparently not. :( I'm still not sure how we should go about fixing this article. --DavidHOzAu 00:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

We can fix (2) by another citation improvement drive. (Everything else is easy to fix.) Filling in these citations should give us another 21 references, bringing the total up to 47 references; If that's not enough references, I don't know what is. --DavidHOzAu 03:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic The Hedgehog

His name is officially Sonic The Hedgehog(with the "T" capitalized). This is how Sega has has always spelled it and how they registered it. Spelling it "Sonic the Hedgehog" is incorrect. TJ Spyke 00:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Per convention, second and following words other than the, a, an, etc, aren't capitalized. -- ReyBrujo 00:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I have noticed quite a bit of rubbish has been added to the article since the disambiguation got removed. I'll revert it to stop people from putting stuff that isn't game-canon into the article. (and resubmit that Sonic 2 disambig and small grammar fix in the Cameos section while I'm at it.) --DavidHOzAu 02:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

"The" in "Sonic The Hedgehog" is Sonic's middle name, so it must be capitalized. -- Dremora 21:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Exaclty, when Sega registered the character they marked his middle name as "The", so his correct name "Sonic The Hedgehog". It would be the same as spelling Richard Dean Anderson's name as"Richard dean Anderson". Until the page is moved I will make a not of it. TJ Spyke 19:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sonic Australian?

Despite Sonic being extremely popular back in the early 90's, I do not remember anyone saying he had a nationality, specifically Australian. If so, then what is up with someone adding that to the 'Fictional Australians' group? --VelocityEX 9:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

He was born on Christmas Island. --DavidHOzAu 06:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of that, but I haven't seen anything that suggests the "Christmas Island" that Sonic was born from was the same "Christmas Island" in Australia; before Sonic Adventure, there was no suggestion at all that the Sonic games took place on Earth. It sounds like fan speculation to me. -- VederJuda 10:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

For evidence, see the corresponding citation. I don't care if the category goes; "Christmas Island" could even be Kiritimati. However, Christmas Island, Australia is the more commonly known one. I didn't even know about Kiritimati until I saw the disambig-link at the top of the Christmas Island article. --DavidHOzAu 07:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

They say he usually hung out at Southern Island in the Older SOnic Games, so it could be possible that he may have been born there. I have heard a lot about Christmas Island though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 156.63.193.62 (talk • contribs) .

Well, as of now, I don't think there is any proof that he is Austrailian, so that should probably be removed until we have some proof that he was born in Austrailia.

Fleetway Specific Article

Hey,hey,hey.Hold up, why does the archie/american version os Sonic have his own article?Shouldn't the Sonic the Comic Sonic get an article for himself as well?-Centurion Ry

You mean like this? BlazeHedgehog 20:54, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Blaze is right. Also, all Sonic articles can be reached from Sonic the Hedgehog series. --DavidHOzAu 10:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I mean....An entire article JUST for the Fleetway character of Sonic...NOT THE COMIC!!!--86.133.44.35 20:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead; you're welcome to try starting it. May I suggest Sonic the Hedgehog (Fleetway character), Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic the Comic character) or Sonic the Hedgehog (British comic character). (my money is on the first.) If you need a page created I'll create it for you. --DavidHOzAu 05:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm...I'll have to keep that in mind...The good news is, I FINALLY could be bothered to log in.The bad news is, I have no experince in creating articles.--Centurion Ry 21:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Sonic is bundling up!

Ok, Ok, OK! Sonic is bundled up with Panasonic, Sony's PlayStation, Microsoft's Xbox and other companys.

They just love Sonic, don't they?

This is like a videogame marathon!

Like, almost 500,000 copies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sonic79267 (talk • contribs) .

Adventure Styled Pictures

Im surprised that there are no "Sonic Adventure" styled pictures on this page. Not only is it the longest running style of sonic art but it is the most recognisable. I didnt want to change or add a picture myself because of the control put on this article but its definitly an impromement from the multiple 3d pictures and the Sonic X pixtures(which dont really relate to the "official" segasonic universe at all.)-RossyMiles 12:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

See /Archive 2#Next Gen pic why we are using the latest-style pics. It is more-or-less convention among CVG articles to use the latest pictures available. As for that Super Sonic image from Sonic X, that one has a non-blank background and it is more suitable for discussing his physical changes/transformation than Sonic Channel's more recent one. To be honest, there's nothing wrong with Adventure-style pics, but the images we use in the article right now do the job admirably. --DavidHOzAu 05:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the 3D styled pictures are the best to be used for the article, but dosent the article deserve just one Adventure styled pic. Its even got the mega drive style. If the existing pictures cant be changed a new one could be added. -RossyMiles 08:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed ANOTHER Sonic X screenshot has been added. No adventure style! -RossyMiles 11:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Three more citations needed

...until we are out of the category, "Articles with unsourced statements" (now defunct). They are:

• That Blaze is similar to Sonic (or that Blaze shares characteristics with Sonic)
• That Shadow and Sonic have fought and argued with each other whenever they meet in every game since [Sonic Adventure 2]
• That Dark Oak is eventually destroyed by a blast from the Sonic Driver

About the Blaze bit, I have read Blaze's profile at Concept-Mobius and apparently, she isn't that much alike. (In fact she has a somewhat more reclusive attitude towards others and herself when compared to Sonic's opinion about similar matters.) However, from an out-of-universe perspective there really isn't much difference; both jump, have to go to the right to get to the end, etc. Thus, as it stands, the entire section on Blaze's relation to Sonic is somewhat flawed (probably because I wrote it) and gives the reader the wrong impression. Does anyone have any ideas on making the article more accurate? --DavidHOzAu 05:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've gotten rid of the last two {{citeneeded}}, they were not necessary:

• Shadow: reworked paragraph to show that Shadow and Sonic's mutual dislike is obvious from playing the games.
• Dark Oak: replaced with inline link to Sonic X media and release information#Episode 77: A Fearless Friend.

As soon as Blaze the Cat's section is fixed, we can try for GA again; the article has come a long way. --DavidHOzAu 11:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the the last sentence of Blaze's section because that was the problematic sentence in the paragraph that gave the wrong impressing. Now that all {{citeneeded}} have been filled, I have relisted the article as a GA candidate. I would like to thank every one who has helped to improve the article, and I would like to request that all of us keep a sane head while the GA status is pending. --DavidHOzAu 22:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

== Eggman versus Robotnik ==

User:Sonic3KMaster changed all the instances of "Eggman" to Robotnik on this article - with the rationalization that the "Robotnik" name is more acccepted. I thought the converse was true. His article is under Doctor Eggman and the Eggman name is used throughout that article. Reverting. --Jtalledo (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC) -- Whoops. --Jtalledo (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism!

As one can see, this article has been vandalized. To quote it, it says: Although how he became half a monster is a mystery- there is a true story behind it all. He began as a cat, a light brown cat, and he got zapped by a ray which combined two different creatures, and he grew spikes, etc. The ray sent him crashing into Amy's house. He was 2 years old. He has a brother names Shadow, who is his worst enemy. While Sonic is nice(or tries to be)Shadow is evil and wants to be head of the family. <img and also says that he's "half-a cat, half-a monster" in his species section. Under Sonic's biography, it says: Sonic is a blue anthropomorphic cat/monster with the ability to run faster than the speed of sound; his talent for speed forms a large part of the gameplay of the series. Under Sonic's design, it even says: Sonic's design is very tricky to see. What makes him half cat is his cat ears, cat feet, and cat tail. He is half a monster because of his spikes, teeth, claws, eyes, and his LOVE for steak. But the sad part is when he was hit by the ray, he became known to think like a monster. He tries to control himself, but it's too hard without Amy's help. <img src="http://www.teamartail.com/sonicx/viewimage.php/60/images/125.JPG"> |url=http://sonicworld.sclassic.org/angel_island_interviews/interviews/1992/sonic_1992_unknown_1.htm |title=Sega Visions Interview with Yuji Naka |year=1992 |month=October |accessdate=2006-03-06}}</ref>. In fact, it even repeatedly assures visitors that his favourite food is steak, and it says: As a baby though, he'd wreck things, and wake up in the middle of the night for steak. Soon he and Amy grew very attached. Amy was told to stay the same age until Sonic was older than her. Can someone remove those statements and correct them? Shadoman 15:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Who did that? You should check the history log thing, and you can check who it was. I can't believe it! And I didn't notice that?

Fastnaturedude 20:10, 13 August 2006 (EST)

It was an anonymous user, User:24.177.226.57, who has been warned. Kickaha Ota 16:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced statements

Great... while we wait the approval of the GA team, two {{cite}} appear...

Some say Metal Sonic is still Sonic's true rival, as Shadow is acting a bit more like a friend than a rival. ^{[citation needed]} Metal Sonic's current location is unknown to everyone, except possibly Omega and Shadow, who were seen with his crumpled frame at the end of Sonic Heroes. Although it is speculated that Metal Sonic was destroyed, ^{[citation needed]} this is unlikely; Metal Sonic might come back again in future games, as it is hinted in Heroes that Sonic and Metal Sonic are still rivals to the end, when the two make a mutual vow to battle again.

Somebody fix this, please!

igordebraga ≠ 19:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. --DavidHOzAu 12:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

While we're on this topic, if you're wondering why the GA is taking so long, it was moved to "Everyday". (Don't know how it ended up there since I wasn't aware it was listed it under that.) I have just moved it to a more appropriate location. Hopefully it won't take long now. --DavidHOzAu 04:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 02:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Sonic the Hedgehog (character) → Sonic The Hedgehog (character) – Legal correct name of the character, Sega registered "The" as his middle name and thus should be capitalized. TJ Spyke 19:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Weak Oppose Wikipedia usually prefers common usage to funny spellings made up by ad agencies and marketing departments, because usage is stabler. The ad guys could have another brainstorm tomorrow. So unless people actually write Sonic The Hedgehog (I have no idea), this should stay put. Septentrionalis 21:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak support - doesn't really matter either way, but we might as well stick with the "official" spelling. --Jtalledo (talk) 02:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• No way! Then we'd have to get consensus for Knuckles the Echidna, Shadow the Hedgehog, Blaze the Cat and just about every other Sonic character with a "the" in it; i.e. too much work for little reward. Besides, holding down the shift key takes too much effort. (Note: Sega seems to be the only people who capitalize "The"; IGN spells it with a lowercase letter, as does IMDB, etc.) --DavidHOzAu 06:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. The titles of the games themselves use a capitalized "The" -- for example, Sonic The Hedgehog. (At least they usually do, though sometimes Sega slips up even here when referring to them; for example, "Sonic the Hedgehog 2".) But when referring to the character, it appears that Sega usually uses a lowercase "the"; for example, "Play as Sonic the Hedgehog or Blaze the Cat!") Since this article is about the character, not the game, the lowercase "the" would seem appropriate. In any case, if Sega isn't consistent about how the character's name is capitalized, we should go with the standard English capitalization. Kickaha Ota 17:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. As per Kickaha Ota, my guess is that the game has the capitalized The, which is not unusual, but not the character alone. SnowFire 17:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support per nom. 67.137.12.144 21:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment That's either someone who forgot to sign in, or a very odd first contribution to Wikipedia. You should start by, you know, writing an article or something. :) Kickaha Ota 21:49, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose I believe that we should be using standrard English in this case especially if Sega is not consistant. --Edgelord 02:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, policy states words that are not proper noun should not be capitalized. -- ReyBrujo 03:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Sonic's middle name is "The", so I think that should be treated like any other fictional characters with middle names. If his full name is "Sonic The Hedgehog" then that is how it should be listed here. TJ Spyke 21:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • IMDb is user edited and IGN has been wrong many times in the past. Those other characters are just "the" in their title, but Sega specifically registered "The" as Sonic's middle name, meaning it should be capitalized. It's the same way you wouldn't type "Richard dean Anderson" because that would be incorrect. TJ Spyke 21:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The word "the" is not a noun! We used correct captialization as used in an encylopedia and other formal works, we can't help that Sega doesn't. (Recall that Sonic Team do not speak English natively.) Also, there are so many times the lower case "the" is used in all Sonic articles, so we'd have to change all the times the links appear with a lowercase "the", (redirects will still display with the outdated capitalization,) let alone all the links to this article; the templates will need updating, every article would need recategorizing with the new capitalization, (the templates do not do this,) and the old ones would need listing at WP:CfD. I, for one, am not willing to take on that job, nor would I expect anyone else to. This is clear-cut case of WP:POINT. --DavidHOzAu 05:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Picture Update

I hope no one minds, but I've updated Sonic's picture. UnDeRsCoRe 21:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it and I like it, but because we've had some lame edit wars about the picture, someone might challenge it, and we'll have to have another survey. Sonic3KMaster(鉄也)^(talk) 23:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I recently noticed someone reverted the picture back to it's old one under the grounds that it had a gradient border. It dosen't matter if it has a border. It his most recent appearence and it should be there. And if you have a problem with it, why don't you just edit the picture and remove the border and upload it.? UnDeRsCoRe 15:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

We cannot legally edit fair use pictures. --DavidHOzAu 03:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Whats the problem with cropping the gradient from the picture? Its just the same as ordinary cropping but with a non-straight edge. Sonicteam dosent care anyway, they allowed Dioxaz's Sonic Art Archive as long as it had a copyright notice on the picture download page. -RossyMiles 08:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Ignore all rules is said for Wikipedia rules. You can't apply that to things with Copyright. There is not a HUGE difference between both pictures to justify editing one, when the other is fine enough. -- ReyBrujo 02:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Japanese use of English?

If you play Sonic Adventure games or watch Sonic X in Japanese, you'll notice that Sonic uses alot of english phrases. In fact, in Sonic X, Sonic usualy says at least one thing in english per episode I think it's like his personality... or something worth mentioning at least

They do that all the time in Japanese entertainment. In Super Smash Bros. Melee, pretty much everyone (excluding Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Peach, Yoshi, Bowser, DK and the Pokémon) does the same thing. Seriously, people have known about this for over eight and a half years. Shadoman 14:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Criteria 6a

Guys, the image at the top of the page Image:Sonic_next-gen.png doesn't have a FU rationale, and this means that the article would fail part 6a) of the criteria. Could someone correct this and check all other images in the article have FU rationale and source information. Thanks, Alexj2002 00:40, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The original image was Sonicnextgen.png; I'll restore it. In the meantime, Sonic_next-gen.png should have FU rationale and a respectable source added, rather than some place from freewebs. (The latter looks like a photoshopped fair-use image I know of, which would be closer to copyvio than fair use.) --DavidHOzAu 09:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

GA Passed

As a next step I would suggest that the various lists under the appearances section be moved into their own article along with other unnecessary objects to comply with WP:SUMMARY. Then I would suggest trying for FAC. Tarret 15:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for awarding the article GA status; it makes the entire writing experience worthwhile. We will put that as the next thing on our unwritten "to do" list. --DavidHOzAu 02:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

shadows clone ?

yeah, he can do evry thing sonic can, and they look pretty the same. shadow has also said that sonic looks like his ``TWIN´´. SO WHY NOT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.200.164.254 (talk • contribs) .

That can't be true! No way can that be true! Anonymous65.87.191.22 23:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a forum. --DavidHOzAu 04:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced "hack-team" findings

So far I've reverted twice an attempt to add unsourced, unverifiable information regarding voice work supposedly done for the next-gen Sonic. The statements I removed say that a "hack-team" found a "secret page" on an unspecified site stating the names of voice actors. Rather than get into an edit war, I'd like to get some discussion going here with whoever is adding these -- one was an anon user, the other appears to be a new account. If we can get some kind of citation for the information, then maybe it can stay -- even though, honestly, it's not very good or useful information, and encourages site hacking. --Darksasami 22:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It also goes against all that is good about good articles. I thought this would happen. --DavidHOzAu 13:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a comment to the text, using the usual style of phrasing that visible templates do. Crufty and uncited prose has no place on Wikipedia. --DavidHOzAu 13:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Book section

Per the suggestion in #GA Passed, I forked off the book section to List of Sonic the Hedgehog printed media. Now we need a really tight summary of it and we are done. --DavidHOzAu 06:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

X Factor?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but where is this X Factor stated from official sources?Czin 00:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm as lost as you are. Someone needs to explain this.Superbub 01:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be from the new game, I'm not sure. I added {{citeneeded}}; I'll remove the statement entirely in a few days if a source isn't cited. --DavidHOzAu 11:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Blame the Sonic X dub for that...they used it in a promo ad GrandMasterGalvatron 18:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

What the ?

Forget the X-Factor, what about the rest of the article? What really needs to be explained is this. Can someone please explain why all the text on the left has disappeared? In particular, it has removed nearly all references from Sonic the Comic that have been accepted by games or does not contradict them. The reason why it was there is because we don't have an article about Sonic the Hedgehog (Fleetway character) yet; this article is about the video game character, but it is also a portal to the other incarnations of Sonic too. I have no qualms about the extra text which can be incorporated into the article, or the removal of certain listcruft, but the article has gone back a month or two. I know I've been busy at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Sidebar redesign, but this is ridiculous. I'll try to work what I remember back into the article again; when I'm done I hope to have over fifty references and a balanced article again. --DavidHOzAu 07:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

There, back to 52 references again. Note that while I think the old edition is extremely well laid out, it lacks a significant amount of content. It would be nice if we could find a place to put that text and those references instead of removing them entirely. When we have 52 references, a loss of six references is nothing to quibble at. Since this is a niche subject, the article could do well with a few more references before FA status; almost every statement will need a suitable citation. This may be our hardest endeavor yet. --DavidHOzAu 11:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I didn't delete it, but if I'm correctly understanding what you're saying, then you are agreeing with me on something I've thought about for some time now.

I had been wondering, "What if we move all media info from sources that are not from the video games directly?" The games are the only canonical thing, after all. Maybe we should move this stuff into a seperate article.Superbub 12:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you; there is reason for deleting it because as you say it did improve the article. The problem is that we need a suitable place to move the content to (hard: the "Stay Sonic" references don't seem to fit into just one universe), or think of a better way of wording it (harder: we have had how many people trying to fix this already). The other thing is that the article feels a bit naked without other content to replace it... almost as if it isn't a good article. It might just be my liking long articles over smaller ones, though. --DavidHOzAu 00:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This is why the text was removed. I think I'll remove some of that text I restored and post it here for later consideration. I'll have to pay more attention to talk page notices on articles I frequent. ^_^; --DavidHOzAu 03:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, in time we will need to seperate all the info that isn't canon to the games, but until then Sonic The Comic references should stay.Czin 04:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You may also notice that I recently moved all the out-of-universe information towards the top of the article, again per recommendations in the FAC. --DavidHOzAu 23:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Super Merge

I suggest that information on all of the Super Forms be merged into one article. The transformations section rivals the length of Super Sonic's article. Since people want to shorten the pages so much, this might be a good idea. Grandmastergalvatron 17:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Old origin story

You know the deal: Sonic is an ordinary brown hedgehog. Eggman has an accident and becomes a mad scientist; Sonic becomes the fastest thing alive. Yeah. So it isn't anywhere in the article. I suspect it isn't canon either, hence its exclusion. But I would like to point out that the story was a part of the official American (paradoxical, yes) Sega site for quite some time. Anyone care to discuss this? Personally, I think it could be mentioned in passing; devoting a new section to it would be excessive. Unless it is actually canonical in some part of the world. Paul Haymon 08:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You are refering to Sonic and Eggman's origin in the Sonic The Comic storyline...Czin 23:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. But it was a part of the official American Sega website. Does that make a difference? Paul Haymon 05:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Probably. It depends how long ago that was. I think we've always referred to it as an explanation, not necessarily as a concrete fact. --DavidHOzAu 07:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

So should it be included in the article, or not? Paul Haymon 11:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think not since comics don't have to be aproved canonicly to be released and Sonic The Comic storyline has nothing to do with Sonic's game origin.Czin 18:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be kept in there because it cites a reference that is reused throughout the entire article. --DavidHOzAu 06:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a sentence for clarification. Thanks for the comments back. Paul Haymon 07:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

How long ago was it featured on the US Sega website? That should really be specified (and cited) - check an Archive.org backup, perhaps?

Also, does anyone know just how widespread that version of the Sonic origin was? I know it was originally featured in the American Disney Adventures comic, but apart from that it was mainly in UK publications (Sonic the Comic, the gamebooks and the "Martin Adams" novels). Anyone know if it was used elsewhere in Europe, in anything other than the translated editions of STC? --Nick R^Talk 21:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the citation that ought to be there, I'll try to find one. Paul Haymon 01:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This[3] is the page preceding the page that the origin story was originally found on, but I can't access it. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about accessing archived webpages can help out; otherwise, feel free to remove the unsourced statement. Paul Haymon 08:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

To Do?

What, exactly, needs to be done at this point? Point me in the direction of fixable errors or improvable prose. I want this article to be a featured one, blast it all. Paul Haymon 07:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's some suggestions. --DavidHOzAu 12:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

IMO the "Destiny" section is very weak, and full of speculation of things like "Sonic could be the 'controller' of the Emeralds, but later in the game it's implied that it's the Master Emerald". The Sonic Adventure quotations seem to be more about the Chaos Emeralds than Sonic. At least, I think it should be moved below the "Home" section. --Nick R^Talk 22:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll do what I can when I can. Paul Haymon 01:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers

There are spoilers randomly throughout the article, but no spoiler tag... Paul Haymon 07:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's generally left up to editor discretion. Generally, if the article can get away without them, don't use them. --DavidHOzAu 12:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I didn't know that. However, it seems like a policy that ought to be revised, since it seems to lead to lazy editing, especially with organization issues. Paul Haymon 01:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sonic Picture

I think the current picture of Sonic at the top of the article is okay, but I think that we should use the picture of Sonic from his character profile on the Japanese Sonic 2006 game website. Anonymous September 30th, 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.19.141.251 (talk • contribs) .