Talk:Western (genre)

"The"

I hope I'm not asking a stupid question, but is there a reason that the "The" at the very start of the article is a link to the page about the word "The"? Is that fully necessary? Xanthos IV (talk) 16:33, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Probably the same reason revenge and allegorical are hotlinked further down the page. The article was splurged into being in 2005, when Wikipedia was basically Everything2 without the jokes. The article has rolled downhill since then, attracting fluff on the way. Some Wikipedia articles demonstrate the power of spontaneous collaboration but this is a good counter-example, because as with e.g. New Wave science fiction it's basically unrecoverable in its current form and can only be meaningfully improved by erasing it and starting from scratch. A simple decade-by-decade chronology of Hollywood Western films would be a major undertaking by itself. An article about The Western in all its forms including the historical background plus the shifting cultural context plus all the world's media would be multiple 700-page volumes enormous. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

"Most Acclaimed Westerns."

"Many of the most acclaimed Westerns were released during this time, including High Noon (1952), Shane (1953), The Searchers (1956), and The Wild Bunch (1969)."

What is the specific source or basis for this short list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.239.95.121 (talk) 07:48, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Meat pie western source removal

While that cite wasn’t the best one for the assertion made before it, it is, in fact, both expert - Howson may be a bit of loose cannon on some things, but film ain’t one of them, and it appears to be the actual origin of the term. It probably belongs in the article. Qwirkle (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I didn't actually remove that source, I moved it to be more specific (re spaghetti comparison). I also used it in the Meat pie article - which has now been considerably expanded - but you have just reminded me that I noticed before that the Trove citation didn't include the author, so have added it to both. I have spent way too much time on reading up and adding bits to various elements of these topics and am done now - feel free to edit further as you wish! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 06:06, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Historical definition of Western?

Many works are described as "Westerns", which is directed here, even though they aren't set in the nineteenth-century. For example:

• The Hi-Lo Country - post WW2
• Brokeback Mountain - 1963-83
• All the Pretty Horses (film) - 1949-
• No Country for Old Men (film) - 1980 - described as "neo-Western" which links here anyway.
• The Sundowners (1960 film) - set in the 1920s in Australia

If these are Westerns, what exactly makes them Western? Why are readers being directed here? What will they find out? I think there needs to be a better and broader explanation of what the genre is about, or else these links should be removed.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

The "snow Western" subgenre

An unregistered user with the IP "184.97.128.161" added the "snow Western" subgenre on 6 September 2019 to the article, diff:

The snow Western subgenre is  based during mid- to late winter, and set in the continental United States. It is a more rare Western, as most focus during warm weather or areas without snow. Popular films of this subgenre are Andre de Toth's Day of the Outlaw (1959), Sergio Corbucci's  The Great Silence (1968), Sydney Pollack's Jeremiah Johnson (1972), Breakheart Pass (1975), Quentin Tarantino's The Hateful Eight (2015), and Alejandro González Iñárritu's The Revenant.

I searched the Google for "snow Western genre" and couldn't find a useful source for the claimed subgenre, so I removed it now, but if you could find something useful you can re-add it.--FMM-1992 (talk) 00:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Western fiction alongside split into several other articles.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge; acknowledgement that some reorganization is warranted, but that this isn't the solution; no consensus for any alternative specific plan; stale discussion. Klbrain (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

---

So obviously this article is a bit of a mess at the moment, but I think a lot of that just comes down to the fact that the intended scope and notability of the article isn't well established anywhere so there is a lot of ambiguity over what exactly the article should be; some parts of the article seem to want to treat it as an article on the Western genre as a whole, while others seem to want to specify it as a genre of film and nothing more. In particular there is a large amount of overlap with Western fiction (I mean ffs one is a part of WikiProject Novels while the other is a part of WikiProject Literature, where the hell do you even start with that level of oversight) and of course the elephant in the room is the hellishly overexpanded and overcomplicated subgenre list.

My proposal is to merge these two articles into either Western (genre) or Western fiction (whichever is more widely used in the sources) followed immedietly by a split into Western (film), Western (novels), whichever other mediums warrant their own articles, and List of Western subgenres. This will give the article a well-defined scope for editors to build towards, avoid example sprawl, and can also help the overall quality of the article. Orchastrattor (talk) 19:50, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

weak oppose - I definitely see what you're getting at and there's a definite need for some of what you've proposed (and more), but I don't necessarily support a merge and split per se. I'm supportive of breaking out the list of subgenres for sure - and why wait on that? That should happen now. Go ahead and do that with the current prose (or if you prefer, I can do it - but you proposed it, so it seems appropriate for you to start the process). Also, the subgenre list should not include all-encompassing sublists of everything in that particular subgenre (like it currently does). That's long bothered me, but I just haven't gotten around to editing it. A few examples in each case is adequate. Perhaps a separate list article for a subgenre would be supportable in some cases (such as neo-Westerns). The original article did focus more on the Western film genre, but has since encompassed the genre as a whole. I think it needs to stay that way. It supports the Westerns project, which had the same evolution. The Western fiction article is specific to literature. What I'd like to see is the Western (genre) article continue to support the genre as a whole (some editing in the lead will make this more clear), and the Western fiction article continue as is. If it seems appropriate, possibly propose a move of the fiction article to Western (literature) (or Western (novels), not sure which I'd prefer, but I'd lean towards lit, lest other editors get into nitpickiness about whether a book is a novel, a novella, or some other form of lit). If a separate article for film is warranted (and likewise television), then sure; and prune down the prose in the genre article as those are built out. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:38, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Related: I added List of Contemporary Westerns and linked in the genre article in place of the example listing. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

It's always going to be a bit in the air whether or not a specific aspect or medium of a much larger concept will have the notability for a separate article, so I can definitely understand if a straight merge might simply not be worth the hassle in the long run, but I'm glad people agree with me on the issues with the article's scope. In either case it will definitely be a good move to copy at least some of Western fiction over under its own "Literature" section and it shouldn't be that difficult to simply rephrase a few bits of Western (genre) to not focus exclusively on film. In the mean time though I'm going to follow procedure and attach the necessary tags before actually splitting or merging anything. Orchastrattor (talk) 16:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the logic behind merging with Western fiction only to then split it afterwards. I wouldn't oppose a move of Western fiction to something more clear as a title (as already noted), but merging is unnecessary. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why are most Hollywood westerns set post-Civil War ?

Why are a majority of Hollywood western films take place after the Civil War ? 2.29.250.239 (talk) 23:14, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I am not certain, but it may have something to do with the phase of the American Indian Wars in the post-war period. The period includes Red Cloud's War (1866-1868), the Comanche campaign (1867-1875), the Modoc War (1872-1873), the Red River War (1874-1875), the Great Sioux War of 1876 (1876-1877), the Buffalo Hunters' War (1876-1877), the Nez Perce War (1877), the Bannock War (1878), the Northern Cheyenne Exodus (1878-1879), the Sheepeater Indian War (1879), Victorio's War (1879-1880), the Meeker Massacre (1879), the Crow War (1887), the Ghost Dance War (1890-1891), the Crazy Snake Rebellion (1909), the Bluff War (1914-1915), and the Posey War (1923). The Apache Wars finally ended in 1924, marking the end of the American Indian Wars. Hard to believe, but the peace has lasted for nearly a century. Dimadick (talk) 11:26, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Westerns are not all about Indians, so it's also the period of the railroads opening up the West, when most of the famous outlaws were doing their things, and weaponry included repeating rifles and such. Carptrash (talk) 19:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Concur with the above. There are some Hollywood films set in the West before the Civil War, like The Revenant (2015 film), but they tend to be characterized as adventure films, not Westerns. --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

"The Old West" period of American history is defined as starting after the Civil War, so movies about that period kinda HAVE to be set then.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:10, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Not all Pre-Civil War Hollywood Westerns are categorized as adventure films, take a look at Django Unchained or The Sisters Brothers, they are some of the few Hollywood films set in the West before the Civil War and are classed as Westerns. All I want to know is why are nearly all Western films made by Hollywood take place after the Civil War. 2.29.250.239 (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2022 (UTC

Dear Khajidha, I thought the Old West period started in 1848 during the California Gold Rush (which was before the Civil War). 2.26.1.169 (talk) 15:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Seems the Library of Congress agrees with me: https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-history-primary-source-timeline/rise-of-industrial-america-1876-1900/american-west-1865-1900/ --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

All I want to know is why are nearly all Western films made by Hollywood take place after the Civil War. Is the purpose to improve the article, or just quest for personal knowledge? We're not a discussion forum and the talk page is specifically for discussing improvements to the article, not for expanding into other discussion. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Why is Dynamite is the only explosive used in Western films ?

Why is it that dynamite is the only explosive used in western films ? 2.29.250.239 (talk) 13:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You really need to ask the western script writers about that. I suspect that it is because it was the best known explosive from that era. Carptrash (talk) 16:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Also the safest for the user. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Same as above, the talk page is WP:NOTAFORUM. ButlerBlog (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Capitalization discussion and associated page moves

There is currently a discussion regarding the capitalization of Western as a genre, and a number of related page moves of subgenre articles. ButlerBlog (talk) 21:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Too narrow definition

I think the definition "The Western is a genre of fiction set in the American frontier between the California Gold Rush of 1849 and the closing of the frontier in 1890" is too narrow, as there are many films that are clearly understood and accepted as being Westerns, that are set before or after this period. Perhaps the definition should read "usually set in the second half of the 19th century".2A02:2F0F:B111:6400:839:8575:8371:3A6A (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Various definitions:

"western, a genre of novels and short stories, motion pictures, and television and radio shows that are set in the American West, usually in the period from the 1850s to the end of the 19th century." [1]

"a story, movie, or radio or television play about the U.S. West of the 19th century."[2]

"a novel, story, motion picture, or broadcast dealing with life in the western U.S. especially during the latter half of the 19th century"[3]

"a film based on stories about life in the west of the US in the past" [4]

"a movie based on stories about life in the part of the US west of the Mississippi River when white people began going there to live in the 19th century" [5]

"A western is a book or film about life in the west of America in the nineteenth century, especially the lives of cowboys" [6]

"a film, book, etc, concerned with life in the western states of the US, esp during the era of exploration and early development" [7]

"a film, book, etc. having a setting in the western U.S., esp. during the 19th-cent. period of development and expansion of the frontier" [8]

"a story, movie, or radio or television play about the U.S. West of the 19th century" [9]

"a story, movie, or television show about life in the American West in the late 19th century" [10]

"A novel, film, television program, or other dramatic work including themes, characters, or settings characteristic of the American West, especially of the late 1800s" [11] 2A02:2F0F:B111:6400:839:8575:8371:3A6A (talk) 08:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

there are many films that are clearly understood and accepted as being Westerns, that are set before or after this period - What do you mean by "many"? And can you provide an example? Certainly, there are films in the various Western subgenres that fall outside that time period, the classic Western falls within that definition (which comes from the cited source). It is the themes of the classic Western that define and identify the Western genre when the setting falls outside of that time period. With that in mind, and reviewing the cited source, add revised it to read typically set in... ButlerBlog (talk) 01:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

When it comes to being set before 1850, I agree that "many" is not a good word, although Westerns set in the first half of the 19th century or even earlier are not unheard of (eg Across the Wide Missouri, The Far Horizons, Rachel and the Stranger, The Big Sky, Northwest Passage, to name a few from the classical era; there are others too, but as someone said above, there will always be debates about 'Western' vs 'Adventure' vs 'Historical' film categories). It is indeed quite difficult to create a 'Western' film set during that period because of the history of the region and how it relates to the elements that make a film a 'Western'. I think my main problem is with the cutoff of 1890, which excludes films set in the 1890s; after all, a common definition of the timeframe used in Westerns is 1865-1900 [12]. It seems most Westerns are set in the 1870s and 1880s. Westerns are rarely set during the Civil War, and even more rarely during the 1850s - yet the period of 1849-1865 is included in the lede. 2A02:2F0F:B111:6400:E4EF:3121:BE0E:D663 (talk) 18:23, 26 September 2023 (UTC)