Talk:SubSpace (video game)

SubSpace

...is the name of the game. The article has subsequently been moved from Continuum_(computer_game) to SubSpace_(computer_game).
Discussion welcome. ¦ Reisio 09:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Old Discussion

I removed the zone site listings because I was concerned about possible POV. Both SubspaceHQ and SS/Continuum Resource, already in the links section, have lists of zones and their sites, so I see no need to list every zone here. Listing only a few zones may be seen as favoritist to those zones. -- Slowking Man

I added the "Trench Wars" zone because it is by far the most populated zone in Continuum. I agree that we shouldn't list all zones, but I think it is ok to link the most populated one. (For comparsion: Trench Wars has 602 users playing at this moment, while the next bigges one, Extreme Games, has just 263.) --Conti 22:00, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, if you think it's relevant to the article, then go ahead. I'm not trying to lord over this article or anything. :) My goal is to (eventually) bring it up to featured status, though (I'm trying to get an answer on the copyright status of Continuum screenshots), so I'm just trying to avoid POV issues. -- Slowking Man 05:07, May 27, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, if I add Trench Wars, I guess many people will add their favourite zone as well.. so it might not be a that good idea. But maybe a mentioning of it would be nice.

I don't really know about the copyright status of computer game screenshots, but Myth (computer game) got one, so I guess it's ok. This page should be moved to Continuum (computer game) by the way. --Conti 21:22, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, but, being stupid, I didn't realize there was a "Move this page" link on the left. =\ It's moved now, as you can see. Concerning the screenshot, I'm not too confident that the Myth (computer game) picture is allowable. He states that it "should be under fair use," which doesn't seem too confident to me. I'll keep trying to get an answer. -- Slowking Man 02:49, May 28, 2004 (UTC)

I searched a bit through Wikipedia, regarding the screenshot issue. Wikipedia:Copyrights states that "Wikipedia contains some content (such as low resolution images, screenshots, and short quotations) that are not licensed under terms of the GNU FDL and are instead used under the fair use/fair dealing doctrine of copyright law.". Numerous other articles about computer games also got screenshots (Monkey Island, Mortal Kombat), and there also is a {{screenshot}} for using computer game screenshots. So I'd say it's safe to put some Continuum screenshots in the article. :-) --Conti 14:50, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I ought to have you shot for all the inaccuracies you've put onto this article (originally, I see some got corrected since), blackie would've had you banned. And you talk of POV? How about you pimping the biggest newb zone of them all (trench). Continuum was not originally known as SubSpace, continuum is a 3rd party hack of a client made for the game SubSpace. Also, the ploy about continuum being made to battle cheating is a big lie. The VIE client & Server softwares are perfectly capable of fighting cheating, always were. Same goes to "not releasing continuum source for security reasons". Besides that, cheating at general died out in SubSpace long before continuum came. Furthermore, the highest level of access is a Billing Operator (ussually the host themselves). Moderators are unable to reward players in any truely meaningful way and they can modify access list (allowing/denying entry when permission mode set on). There are probably more of them, but I'm too tired to even try. - Gravitron

Few issues left, but you shouldn't have as much to complain about anymore, Grav. ¦ (Akai) Reisio 17:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pictures

All right, I added pictures! I put in some more content, too. -- Slowking Man 06:07, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Nice work! But I think we don't really need the pictures of the balls/greens/flags, they don't really show anything in my opinion. Maybe another screenshot of the game that shows the diversity of it would be nice. I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I could do that in a few days. --Conti 00:09, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good. I thought that it was kind of hard to describe the objects in text, so I wanted to provide a visual. But if you could get a screenshot of all that, it would probably be better. -- Slowking Man 03:57, Jun 1, 2004 (UTC)

An in-game screenshot of the balls, greens and flags would be good here. In what zone did you made the screenshot in the article? It would be nice to mention it on the page. --Conti 09:38, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I added the info; it's from Star Warzone. I'll try to get another screenshot tomorrow for descriptive purposes, maybe from Alpha.

Well, I added a screenshot showing the weapons and items. I'm going to work on fleshing out some of the sections next. -- Slowking Man 06:33, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

I uploaded Image:Continuumscreenshots.png now. It shows four types of events, partly with completely different graphics. They were all made in SSCU Trench Wars. The screenshot is a bit big, but maybe we could add it somewhere in the artcile. What do you think? --Conti 11:56, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I have redone ContiE's picture to show real game customization. We do not need a Trench Wars advertisement on this. If we want to show arenas with different graphics my new screen is far better. I took the BEST looking possible arenas to illustrate how highly customizable SubSpace can be.

I also added pictures of Continuum 0.38/Subspace 1.35 side by side for client confussion page.

AND i added the info box with the cover art.

-Death+ (SSCI Owner) June 13'th 2006, 5:08PM (PST)

added 3d ship pictures -Cheese 08:41, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

History inaccuracy

Subspace was originally called "Sniper" and its beta started in 1995

FYI - fixed a while ago. ¦ Reisio 07:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

While the game may have been in a closed alpha in 1995, Rodvik put out the first open call for testers in February of 1996. The first report of someone actually playing the game came that March. --einexile 00:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

I edited the sections on Friday, Feb 3rd because they were not true and demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of fundamentals of how SVS Subspace works. I thought that the mistakes were basic enough that any person who had played SVS Subspace would realize that they were incorrect, so I did not bother to add any details about the changes. I guess I should not have assumed that.

Terriors drain energy from bullets at approximately the same rate as any other ship. This can be tested quite easily. Their two bullets do not count as two independent bullets in either doing damage or draining energy.

Two L3 bombs will not kill a full energy opponent because on direct hits. L3 bombs simply have more prox, and thus do more damage on indirect hits. However, they will never get to the 850 per bomb needed to kill on two direct hits only.

I also made some additional minor changes to various ship information. -- Krazikarl 2005 Feb. 5

~~ Aye, even if the terrier has a wider multifire it still does the same damage that a normal L3 bullet would do. And prox does not increase damage, just the range of it. --X`terrania 04:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

One day I'll return to review this entire fiasco and correct it proper. --Ori Klein 10:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

SnrrrubSpace

To the best of my knowledge I was unaware that Snrrrub actually "completed" SubSpace. Is there a source for this statement? The farthest SnrrrubSpace got was as a graphical chat client, and the reasons for not continuing development was Snrrrub not having enough time & it being a moot point with Continuum-only servers. --i88gerbils, somewhat of a SubSpace historian.

Probably just exaggeration. Fixed. ¦ Reisio 02:13, 2005 July 22 (UTC)

~~ I could've swore he gave up on that project. Hopefully one day Priitk will return to save us. --X`terrania 04:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Continuum Linked to Subspace in Search

It would help to link Subspace to Continuum in the searches. Considering SubSpace isn't a dead game and is now played as Continuum which has been worked on by PriitK and Mr. Ekted. Also, there is a poor representation of SVS (Standard Vie Settings) on the page. Storm Cat 16:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Changes

Slight rewrite, bit of copy editing; moved some names and definitions around, added some information, corrected a few errors. Why it was (or is) an MMO, some mention of Rod Humble, and a fairer explanation of the CLASS crack's prominence. SOE is not SCE, Infantry had a publisher prior to SOE but the actual publication never happened, the bit about Continuum's closed source code was speculation. Linked a new SVS stub. --einexile 02:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the Infobox

Please re-edit the page as the Infobox destroys the layout, especially in 800x600 and/or windowed mode. Also, edit it as it makes the game sound dead. --Io Katai

Response... Look at StarCraf,WarCraft,C&C,Sim City games or world of warcraft ANY OTHER HIGH PROFILE GAME, they all get an info box. Subspace is a real game and should have it. I followed the same layout as everyother game.

Not many people use 800x600 reso these days and the client has not been updated OFFICAL Release since 2003, why would we lie, just becuase the client hasent been update ddosent mean zones dont update or that the game is dead?

-Death+ (SSCI Owner) June 13'th 2006, 5:08PM (PST)

I kind of beg to differ Death+. I'm not saying get rid of the infobox, fix it so it doesn't conflict with the contents box and text. I've checked all the other game pages you mentioned, and unlike SubSpace, they don't have problems under other resolutions. Both 800x600 and 1024x768 are the standard resolutions still widely used, so just because you don't use it, doesn't mean others don't. And the reason it sounds outdated is because the media isn't only CD-ROM and neither is the requirement. --Io Katai 0:52 EST, June 14th, 2006

Hey, I will modify the infobox to be like StarCraft so lower resolutions will no longer have issues, sorry.

I will update the meida section also, add download also. ALTHOUGH, World of War Craft(WOW) is actaully downloadable by Bittorent from blizzard but it is listed as CD. That is why I figured It was proper format. I agree though, I will add Download.

Thanks for disscussion.

-Death+ (SSCI Server Owner) June 14'th 2006, 7:11PM (PST)

Ship edits

i have changed the descriptions for all of the ships. as i was reading through it for the first time i realized that the descriptions were completly mixed up. for example, the weasel has the ability to go invisible and is used for covert-ops, however, the article stated that the spider was used for it.

please do not revert these changes back —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthias321 (talk • contribs) .

yes the ships were very inaccruate and had many false writings. I also tried to change them to the correct versions thank you. These edits everyone will find correct by just playing the game and using every ship. the warbird=one bullet jav=bouncing bombs spider=repetitive firing of bullets lev=slow and strong bombs terr=attachable and double barrel weasel=cloaker and small(original large) lanc=double barrel on multifire two shots normally and shark=repels and mines. please keep the current changes and play the game for reference —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thefire (talk • contribs) .

As far as I know, the description of the ships was for the Standard VIE Settings, not for the current ones used by, for example, Trench Wars. I'm not that sure if that's the case tho, so can anyone who has more experience with the game than me confirm this? Oh, and please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). --Conti|✉ 16:04, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You are playing a zone in which the sysop changed the functions of the ships considerably from Standard VIE Settings. Those ship settings are not relevant to this article. SubSeven 16:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

ok, i get it now. i will make an SSCU Trench Wars page with all the ships and leagues etc —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthias321 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 26 September 2006.

The article SSCU Trench Wars was created nearly a month ago and needs to be expanded, I encourage others who know more about it to help by editing it. Io Katai 20:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

No need for a whole new article for TW, just a section for each zone inside the original article. Maurauth 13:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge Continuum (game client)

I'd like to suggest that Continuum (game client) be merged with this article.. It just makes no sense to me that the two should have different articles. It kind of takes up space. Most players that I know anyway call the game SubSpace Continuum by now, which also suggests that the two should be in the same article. Keep the article title 'SubSpace (computer game)' though, given the game's past. -- Zalethon (Talk) 07:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But Continuum is a free multiplayer online client obtained seperately from the Subspace Computer Game, so it should have it's own section within the article. --ElectricEye (talk) 10:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree to the merge. While both seem to be interchangeable terms for the current game; SubSpace represents the original game played, while Continuum represents the modern client used to access the game. By this standard, the article SubSpace (computer game) talks about the in-game details and history since VIE, while the article Continuum (game client) talks about the interface client developed to access the original SubSpace game & servers. It is important that users recognize the difference. - Io Katai 22:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

They are two seperate things? --ElectricEye (talk) 12:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

Continuum needs a separate page. It is far different from the original Virgin Interactive SubSpace. Do I need to explain this in detail? -Death+

SubSpace is the name of the game that is played. Continuum is the name of the modern client that is is now used to access the game. There are many SubSpace clients/bots. The orignal Virgin Interactive SubSpace client is different in many ways to the modern Continuum client. -Doc Flabby —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.20.40 (talk) 19:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

It's completely reworked from the original SubSpace. Maurauth 13:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a merger again. Continuum (game client) is not notable enough for its own article. This is true despite the fact that the game and the client are two different things; any notability the client has is just an extension of the notability of the game. Ichibani _u^t_c 16:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Sigh... Opposed - we went through this already, the Continuum client and the SubSpace client are 2 separate things. The gameplay is similar, but the way the clients handle things (such as interface, client-server, etc.) and history are different. Since SubSpace was the original one, most of the detailed info is provided on this article, while a separate Continuum (game client) is notable enough for its own article. Anyhow, you can't use a guideline to reinforce your opinion. A vote was cast before, the vote was no. I give 2 weeks to provide better reasons as to why it should be merged. Io Katai 08:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Is the short and recent dicussion above the discussion to which you are referring Io? Otherwise, would you point us at the past discussion please?. I also see little reason to keep two articles. Both are relevant to a game which has gone through several phases of development, but can easily be seen as the same topic (and community!). I would strongly support a merge as increased utility for readers and editors. What is the benefit to keeping them split? ∴ here…♠ 17:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Guidelines are there for a reason -- to help apply policy -- not to be ignored. Please don't just try to throw it away. The purpose of notability guidelines are to hasten the process of ensuring -- per policy -- verifiability. In this case, there are no reliable sources in the Continuum article, and per guideline and precedent, that indicates that the article is inadequate. We apply the notability guidelines for web content to acknowledge that verifiability is not likely to be met for this article, particularly to the point of it being of sufficient quantity for a standalone article. Whether or not the game and client are two different things is not an issue. The client is only notable in the context of the game, and therefore the game's article is where the information belongs.

Again, keep in mind that it isn't an affront to the game or the client to merge them into one article, it is, as User:here suggests, beneficial to the encyclopedia. Ichibani _u^t_c 00:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you don't think it's notable enough, it's called using the notability tag. You can't just accuse it of lacking sources and use that excuse to apply a merge. It won't change whether it is notable or not. This is sort of like trying to merge American English into British English just because they're both a part of the English language, but the true fact is, they're different things.

It is important that users recognize that a client and a game are two different things, especially when it comes to Continuum, which is reverse-engineered from the original SubSpace. It's not just been a debate about these two articles before, but the Continuum vs. SubSpace debate is age-long, and in the end it's best that the two are kept differently as they've always been. Io Katai 01:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I did not add a notability tag because I looked around for sources and could find absolutely none, which supports my own knowledge of the issue. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy so there's no reason to take small steps when a big one is indicated.

It is important for the distinction between client and game to be made. However, the way to draw that distinction is not to create separate articles. In cases where a topic is not notable enough for coverage on its own but is a valuable addition to the article on another, more notable topic, a merge is used. (for example, an unnotable book by an notable author simply being a redirect to that author). Ichibani _u^t_c 01:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Notability has little to do with the merge discussion, though it would be appropriate to remove the material entirely -- from either article. There is no reason that the apparently critical distinction cannot be made within one article about the subspace and continuum phenomenon. You may be clinging to some off-wiki political/image struggle from the community, but I still see no substantive argument that they should remain split. That they are different is duely noted, now lets merge the two articles. An (unnecessary) AfD would undoubtedly end in a merge, which I agree is the proper solution here. Nothing is lost! ∴ here…♠ 07:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's sort of obvious that you couldn't find references, because we're talking about an over 10-year-old game that collapsed after VIE, it's called using the webarchive. Anyhow, you still haven't told me any other reasons than notability as a reason to merge the two articles. - And to be honest, there is no struggle in this community (seriously, what community?) that you're talking about. - As I said, if you wanted notability apply the proper tags, otherwise provide a direct reason as to why the two articles should be merged. Merging articles doesn't make one or the other more notable. Io Katai 19:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Merging these articles is inacurrate and misleading, Continuum is not the only client for SubSpace, there are and have been a number of others. http://ss-discretion.sourceforge.net/ being one in active development. Continuum is just the "current" client. The GAME is called subspace, clients communicate using the SubSpace protocol http://wiki.minegoboom.com/index.php/Core_protocol, There are a number of CLIENTS TO PLAY SAID GAME, like IE and Firefox, both are HTTP clients. They both do the same thing, does that mean they should be merged?

If you want to understand more about the history read this article http://www.trenchwars.org/index.php?v=gethelp&id=1

I shall list the main clients here for you. SubSpace - The original VIE client - is the boxed version that was sold in shops, Continuum - http://www.getcontinuum.com, Discretion - http://ss-discretion.sourceforge.net/, TWCORE http://www.twcore.org/, MervBot http://www.mervbot.com/ Theses a whole list of other clients here. http://toktok.sscentral.com/ss-game.html 11:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.134.106.86 (talk) 12:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC).

As of June 26, 2007, the article Continuum (game client) was merged into SubSpace (computer game), disregarding any discussion. Io Katai 18:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I know how to make a redirect, but where would you put it? Someone please tell me. Prottos007 (talk) 23:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Trench Wars

When i read it, it basically talking about experiences in Trench Wars. his is not neutral since there are other zones with different characteristics. This need to be fixed fast.

--

Trench isnt mentioned once... and everything under gametypes/gameplay can be done in any zone Samba pa ti 08:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Ships

The article on the ships is very messed up. Will someone PPPPPLLLLLEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSSEEEEEEE correct it? Prottos007 16:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"Following is a description of each ship and its role in Standard VIE Settings. Although other zones may use settings based on SVS, they can differ entirely from these descriptions." - Io Katai 18:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Subspace Cover.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

King of the Hill

The text describing the King of the Hill game type sounds very confusing to me, especially as a non-player. The specific part of the text that makes little sense to me is: "If a player kills a flagger with a crown, or people in red, they can take their crown or to destroy 2 normal people with crowns. Most flaggers with low bounty do not give people their crown." Wait, what? eXonyte (talk) 13:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing, I've reworded the entire paragraph. Please let me know if it is still difficult to comprehend. - Io Katai (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Zombies

Zombies dont even count as an actua subspace mode, its just a bot command —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolman1250 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Cruft

There's a lot of cruft in this article, especially the images. I'd stick with the basic description, gameplay section and history. SharkD (talk) 04:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Although the ship description section isn't exactly pertinent (especially due to the variability of the game, zones, and arenas), the rest is. For example, the 'Game Files' section was merged from a separate article which described the Continuum game client which is used to play the game today. The 'Game Dynamics' section helps describe the variability of the gameplay: similarly, Infantry Online, which is based off SubSpace, uses the same zone-style structure. The rest, although may not be too pertinent to people outside of the game community, remains encyclopedic information as it describes the archistructure of the game which differs greatly from nearly all other games (some things could technically have their own articles, but because they're dependant on this article, they'll just be re-merged). A lot of this 'cruft' you decribe can also be found on other articles such as Guild Wars (series), Breath of Fire III, Tales of Destiny, Eve Online, etc. The biggest difference is however, the fact that SubSpace is entirely ran by players, so more information is available to the public.

On a side note, I fail to see why you added the article to Category:Space combat simulators when it does not correspond to Space combat simulators in any sense. - Io Katai (talk) 13:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant statement

The introduction states that "Although falling short of modern standards, SubSpace is widely considered an early entry in the massively multiplayer online genre".

Aside from the fact that it may be non-neutral, the statement seems completely irrelevant to whether or not SubSpace is an early MMO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.89.158 (talk) 08:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Sections to be cleaned up

The previous edit by Eik Corell cleaned up quite a bit, but I think some of the deleted information should be brought back. The deleted sections were quite wordy and have a lot of unnecessary trivia, but I feel that the core of some sections could be salvaged and made useful. Specifically, here are the parts I'm keeping or trimming:

• Trim: Competitive Play
• Keep: Ships [the variety of ships heavily affected the gameplay]
• Trim: Standard VIE Settings
• Trim: Continuum client
• Keep: A Small SubSpace Server [Seems useful to know that competing open-source clients exist]
• [Other previously deleted sections stay deleted]

Of course, feel free to edit and further trim down the sections. It would be nice to have some discussion before completely deleting whole sections, but I'm not against getting rid of sections that are useless or too trivial. --Eptin (talk) 21:44, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

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