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Kmart Plaza, Burwood East was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was to delete the article.

Interrupting a discussion at the Australian Wikipedians noticeboard (discussion). This will determine what people actually think of this articles validity. I do not think that mediocre shopping centers or malls of unimportance should really be made into articles. Especially while many actual towns and settlements are not actual articles.--ZayZayEM 00:25, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • This is a tough one. There is potential to write neutral, verifiable, non-vanity information about it, so it really comes down to the notability de-facto standard. I'm unsure how to interpret notability in this case: while the shopping centre is probably widely known enough to pass the "how many people know about it" notability test, it probably doesn't pass the "how is this different from other similar things" notability test, or the "how many people would want to read about it" test. On the basis of that, I'm tipped slightly to the delete side of things, unless someone can improve the article to more firmly establish notability. Shane King 01:38, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge into city article, not nearly notable enough. Gazpacho 02:16, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Doesn't look notable enough to me. --Idont havaname 02:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: I don't think this place is noteworthy enough to merit an article. I think it sets a bad precedent: should we list every shopping centre in the world? How about every shop? Rje 02:25, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Argh, you've got me here. When you phrase it like that, you're right, it doesn't sound notable at all, but personally I thought this article had merit because the plaza contains one of the few remaining 24-hour Coles', and I think the ONLY remaining 24-hour Kmart, in metropolitan Melbourne. Believe me, as a Melbourne nightowl, it's pretty handy to know there's still an all night supermarket and department store not far from home. I'm going to vote Keep, at least until I can edit in some more info and maybe convince people that its notability lies purely in its significance as a rare 24/7/365 shopping complex. (I'm a swinging voter, see below!) - Vaelor 02:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Although I'm not a big fan of lists, I do think a list of Melbourne stores that are open 7x24 would be worthwhile. It should probably start within the Melbourne article and get broken out only if the list has more than a half-dozen items on it. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:38, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. It does attempt to establish notability by claiming that it is notable for having two stores that are open 24x7, but that does not (in my opinion) meet the high bar that should be set for shopping center notability. (If we kept the article, would we delete it if the stores later decided to limit their hours?) If the article were falsified by changing the information in it, would anyone notice? Has anyone actually bothered to verify the information in this article? This site gives the [1] Kmart a rating of one star out of five. Since it's a rating by a single traveller I wouldn't put a lot of weight on it, but it doesn't suggest that this Kmart is anything special. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:36, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Shall I head down there at 3am tonight and take some photos of the relatively large number of people walking in and out of the doors, for inclusion in the article to "prove" that the stores are 24 hour? =) I appreciate what you're saying here, that there should be a solid notability to merit an article, but this is a level of paranoia that I think is a little extreme. The case in point should be whether being a rare 24/7 shopping complex is a reason for notability, not whether we can collate enough evidence proving that it IS 24/7. But hey, feel free to give the Kmart a call on (03) 9802-2011, and ask them what time they close if you like! ;) Also, the fact that some solitary fool was bored one day and clicked one star on Kmart - without even writing a review or posting a reason as to why, which leads me to assume he was just bored and trolling - hardly merits a mention as to the notability of Kmart Plaza overall. However, this is looking like a resounding no towards an article being notable based on its 24/7 trading status so far anyway.... - Vaelor 03:01, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • delete --fvw* 03:27, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)
  • Delete: If it is locally notable, and it sounds like it is, then I think it should be discussed on a local article page. No doubt Melbourne is huge. Are there pages for Melborne commerce or Cultural life of Melbourne? Two 24 hr stores is good, and the article isn't poorly written, but what is unique one place is commonplace somewhere else. In Atlanta, The Majestic diner and Plaza Drugs are institutions -- open since the 1920's and 24 hours a day -- but I couldn't see them being individual articles. Geogre 04:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Not only is it a place that you can go shopping, it is the only place you can do department store shopping at night. Apart from supermarkets and 7-11's you can't shop anywhere else. I think that makes it reasonably notable. Secondly, it is actually a shopping centre of reasonable size. So if we keep articles like Chadstone Shopping Centre, where do we draw the line? And how do you define notability? Revenge 04:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Comment: Chadstone is vastly more massive than this place, as are a number of other centres in Melbourne. This plaza isn't that big at all. █ T █ P █ K █ 13:14, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • TPK, you know how I love to play Devil's Advocate on notability matters ;) - I think what Revenge is saying here, is who decides where the line in the sand gets drawn? Who makes the distinction that a mall the size of Kmart Plaza doesn't merit a page, but a mall the size of Chadstone does? Does a mall have to cover a certain amount of land space to be considered "large"? What about malls that are larger than Kmart Plaza, but smaller than Chadstone? As he said, how DO you define notability? - Vaelor 14:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Shopping centres can be classed as 'regional', 'super-regional', 'sub-regional', etc. Chadstone is a 'super-regional' centre, while Kmart Plaza would most likely be 'sub-'. If the classification for a centre can be found, it ought to be at least regional to merit inclusion, possibly only super-regional. More research would be required to go in this direction though. █ T █ P █ K █ 15:03, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • This sounds like a reasonable gauge for such things - if only there were such a logical system in place for geographical areas and/or commercial business entities! =) I haven't heard of this classification before though - what do the various terms mean exactly, and where does this method of classification come from? - Vaelor 15:15, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, less notable than a high school, and some people don't want high schools. Everyking 05:32, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. In my opinion, railway stations are in, but tram stops, bus stops, and shopping centres are out unless notable in some way. This article doesn't establish that notability. If the 24 hour opening is unique, then that might swing it. But is it? The article doesn't say. Andrewa 05:36, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I think I'm on your wavelength as far as what is in and out. 24 hour shopping, even if it is rare these days, is not really that notable.--ZayZayEM 05:56, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. 24-hour shopping is not notability. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 06:14, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Lots of places are open 24 hours. Gamaliel 06:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Would this kind of info be more suitable for [Wikitravel]? - Skysmith 10:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The conversation on the Aust. Wikipedians Board has convinced me that all-night trading alone doesn't make for notability. To paraphrase Geogre above, just because 24-hour shopping has become a rarity in Australia, doesn't really make it globally notable. I change my vote to Delete, and I'll be happy to include a mention of the rarity of the available late night shopping in the geographic article on Burwood East instead where it would be more suitable... - Vaelor 11:59, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge bare essentials with Burwood East, Victoria. It's a place. zoney ♣ talk 12:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Agree - this should be the desired outcome.
  • From the comments above, all this is notable for is 24 hour opening. That's not very notable. Delete. Average Earthman 19:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Would one come to Wikipedia to find out what stores are open late in a particular city? Probably not. Would one know the name and location of the plaza to look it up in the first place? Absolutely not. Coming from a city which desperately needs someone to maintain a "things open late" directory I understand the sentiment but this isn't the right place. — mendel ☎ 21:57, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • The local Denny's franchise is the only restaurant in driving distance that is open 24 hours. Does that make it notable enough for its own article? I don't believe so. Besides, Wikipedia is not a business directory. Already voted. Gazpacho 23:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete - just a shopping center. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:31, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete per Dpbsmith's argument above. Specifically "If the article were falsified by changing the information in it, would anyone notice?" Too small a topic to maintain. Rossami (talk) 05:46, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - Ta bu shi da yu 08:15, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep I've been to that Plaza... so it exists and I've seen heaps of people there... Why not?... [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 08:20, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Burn the remains, and then scatter the ashes from the top tier of the MCG. I appreciate that there's not a lot that passes for culture in Australia, but I think promoting shopping malls to iconic status is probably not the way to rectify the situation. --- GWO 15:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Erm, your fanatical enthusiasm there is more than a little disturbing. It's just a Wikipedia article big fella, take a deep breath now... =) - Vaelor 16:10, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't want to be the one to disambiguate the world's Kmart Plazas, if we allow articles on all of them. There's simply no reason to. There's not anything encyclopedic or remarkable about them, and no reason to start articles about them, even though I am aware that Wikipeida is not paper. Delete. Rlquall 22:01, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - factual, verifiable. The nominator's implication that deleting this article will further articles about towns is bizarre - David Gerard 22:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I find it bizzare you think I implicated it. I meant to implicate it as a "NOT NOTABLE" article compared to "notable" not articles.--ZayZayEM 09:26, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 01:03, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not notable. --Improv 05:11, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not notable. Indrian 05:21, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia cannot afford to have an article of every mall of this level of notability. Delete. --L33tminion | (talk) 02:28, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Conceivably an article on general Retailing might refer to this. By itself, no. CSTAR 02:33, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: wrong side of the line. Wile E. Heresiarch 15:53, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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