Talk:The Diary of Lady Murasaki

Can anyone tell me or give me a url with imagery for what their clothes looked like during the Heian period? leave it as a post please. thanks

Check the article Jūnihitoe. Gryffindor 00:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Murasaki vs. Lady Murasaki

This edit with the edit summary of "light ce" does more than a copyedit - it changes the name from Murasaki to Lady Murasaki, and does so inconsistently. Since I've been reverted in the choice of name, I'll stop work and stand back until it can be sorted out and consensus is achieved. I'm referring to Murasaki Shikibu as Murasaki based on many sources that I've retrieved from behind paywalls, borrowed from university libraries, and purchased. For example, in his translation of The Diary of Lady Murasaki (1983), Richard Bowring consistently refers to the author as Murasaki in his introduction which is almost as long as the text of the diary itself. Another scholar of Japanese literature, Donald Keene, also refers to her as Murasaki. If necessary I will survey all the literature and post which scholars refer to her as Murasaki and which as Lady Murasaki. Whichever we decide to use, should also be used in the Murasaki Shikibu page - so changes such as this might actually require a name change for the biography page - not a small thing. I won't revert and am stepping away until this is sorted. Truthkeeper (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking to do a more thorough edit later, adding "Lady" throughout for consistency. Since those authors refer to her parsimoniously as "Murasaki", I suppose it must be acceptable, even though I don't agree with it. Bowring even seems to contradict himself by using "Lady Murasaki" in the title of the book, and then dropping her title in the text. Does he explain his decision? No need to get geared up for a protracted Wiki-war. I don't have the time or inclination. I thought at least the first time her name is mentioned per paragraph or per section it should include the title "Lady". What's the norm when it comes to British nobility? Is the title used the first time in a body of text? Section? Paragraph? Boneyard90 (talk) 19:26, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

First, I don't do wiki-wars, so you've got the wrong person. I choose sources based on suitability, read them, and follow them. It's irrelevant whether we agree or disagree as editors, once we decide a source is suitable and if we find a preponderance of the sources uses a specific nomenclature, then we simply report (well it's not simple, but you get my meaning). As far as the British nobility - I don't see how the British nobility is relevant to Heian era Japan. Anyway I offer these sources, with wikilinks to google books if you can see them, that all refer to the author as Murasaki. They are Japanese literature scholars from Columbia University, Harvard University, and so on. If you can offer sources that show the name to be different, then we can have a conversation. Until then the edit I spent 20 minutes putting together from a source I spent my own money on and was lost in an edit conflict will stay lost.

• Keene, Donald. Seeds in the Heart: Japanese Literature from Earliest times to the Late Sixteenth Century. (1999). New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-11441-9 On Google Books. Columbia University
• Mostow, Joshua. "Mother Tongue and Father Script: The relationship of Sei Shonagon and Murasaki Shikibu". In Copeland, Rebecca L., Ramirez-Christensen, Esperanza (eds). The Father-Daughter Plot: Japanese Literary Women and the Law of the Father. (2001). Honolulu: Hawaii UP. ISBN 0-8248-2438-5 On Google books University of British Columbia
• McCullough, Helen. Classical Japanese Prose: An Anthology. (1990). Stanford CA: Stanford UP. ISBN 0-8047-1960-8 On Google books UC Berkeley
• Mulhern, Chieko Irie. Japanese Women Writers: a Bio-critical Sourcebook. (1994). Westport CT: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0-313-25486-9 On Google books Columbia University
• Shirane, Haruo. Traditional Japanese Literature: An Anthology, Beginnings to 1600. (2008b). New York: Columbia UP. ISBN 978-0-2311-3697-6 On Google books Columbia University
• Tyler, Royall. "Murasaki Shikibu: Brief Life of a Legendary Novelist: c. 973 - c. 1014". (2002) Harvard Magazine. Retrieved 4 November 2011 Harvard University

This is not an easy page and I have no problem stepping aside for someone to finish writing it - without the slightest war; moreover I shouldn't have to spend time proving this.Truthkeeper (talk) 20:36, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Shoo-i, you're a tad wound up. I've been keeping up with your work here and in related articles. You've been doing good stuff, and any disagreement I might have had with any details of content or style (I can't remember any particular ones at the moment) weren't important enough for me to change. I made a minor change to the last edit because I thought the "drunken behavior" of Michinaga was relevant. The text refers to him embarrassing his wife and daughter, which without explanation, begs the question What embarrassing behavior? Also, I changed "drunken men" to "drunken nobles", since I'm guessing there were plenty of male servants & etc. who never got a chance to seduce ladies-in-waiting. The text refers to "Lady Murasaki Shikibu" in the lead, and I've always thought it a good idea to keep a person's title appended at all times. My addition of "Lady" in the text was like a test edit. And since it caused undue grief and angst, I can go back and revert the additions with little trouble. Boneyard90 (talk) 22:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

First, yes I suppose I am a tad wound up as you say. The reason you felt you needed to change the last edit is because I found a discrepancy in interpretation between two sources which required rewriting a section. I took apart what was there, re-read the sources I've been working with, and painfully, slowly, reworked the section - only to be edit conflicted! Normally that's not a problem but I'm having on-going internet connection issues and I lost about 40 minutes of work. All that the see the edit conflict was because of a name change, which I don't consider minor - and could have been mentioned on the talkpage. When I brought it here, given the response that you don't agree, I thought it best show what the sources say and to show that I haven't arbitrarily decided to use Murasaki, but instead gave it thought based on sources. At the moment I haven't a lot of time for wiki, I'd like to get this page finished, and without immersing myself in the sources, which means as long as 30 minutes between edits, it aint gonna happen. So, that explains the mood. That said, you're right about the lead - I'm not a good lead writer and tend to ignore the lead until I'm finished building a page. I will, however, work on the lead to avoid the name confusion. And thank you for removing the instances of "lady" - I wasn't looking forward to a page move on the biography. Truthkeeper (talk) 23:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)