Talk:The Story of Little Black Sambo

Political correctness

'Little Black Sambo', in order to be politically correct in todays world of intolerance, should probably be retitled to 'Little Tanned Kid'. This is because, according to my grandmother who, while growing up in India in the late 1800's to early 1900's, knew both the author and the child 'Little Black Sambo' was based on. This particular child played outside a lot and had developed quite a healthy tan even for a person from that part of the world. As a result in order to differentiate this child for others in conversation he was referred to as 'black' because nobody used the term 'tanned'. The name 'Sambo' at least when the book as written was a general name given to children much as we use the them 'kid' today.

Sambo is the name of Lord Shiva in India. Its not a racial slur at all. A lot of kids get tanned in India playing outside in the sun. I am not sure what is the racial point or controversy here, specially with anyone from Africa who are not even related to this book. 66.134.42.186 (talk) 06:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this is, IMHO, the perfect example of how the true purpose of political correctness was to make men stupid, and it has striken specially hard on U.S. citizens. There's nothing wrong whatsoever on this story, and not even the cartoons are offensive unless you are specifically trained to feel it that way. The only thing wrong is american culture that finds racism in children stories that are supposed to help integration and respect for other cultures; some critics are even dumber because they got offended by the "corrected" versions that specifically try not to offend them. I suggest adding a link to idiocracy at the end of the article so that non-american people can get a better understanding of what's happening there. 84.121.139.242 (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.155.144 (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Published editions

At least one American edition from 20 years ago leaves Sambo's name as "Little Black Sambo", but changes his mother's name from "Black Mumbo" to "Mama Sari" and his father's name from "Black Jumbo" to "Papa Simbu".

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As a child, I had a "Golden Book" that told the story. The illustrations were credited to "Suzanne." (no last name given). In the Golden Book version, Little Black Sambo looked decidedly Indian. The current article doesn't mention this book.

I had a copy of this when I was a little kid, and looking back I really enjoyed it. I can understand how the illustrations, especially in the US version, can be considered offensive, but the story to me has always seemed to be an anti-colonial allegory. The tigers represent the 'world powers' of the day (Great Britain, France and Germany) and Little Black Sambo represents the oppressed native. (Note also that the tigers are aggressive, quarrelsome and easily duped and Sambo is intelligent and canny. And that Sambo wins and the tigers, no matter how strong and terrifying they are, are defeated.) Coder Keitaro 14:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Should there be a section on various editions, and mention of style of illustration used? Also, for example, I’m familiar with the story as the tigers melting into butter, but I’ve also heard of English-language, non-Indian books that specifically talk of them melting into ghee. —Wiki Wikardo 22:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Possible Culture Reference

• I remember reading an early Peanuts strip dating to 1957/8 where Lucy retells Little Black Sambo to Linus, and after telling him that Sambo eats the pancakes with the ghi, Linus comments "How can he eat so much after such an emotional situation?" Should we add this comment to pop culture references?

-Rex Imperator 14:47, 28 Febuary 2006

Misuse of "African-American"

This article mentions that "sambo" is used as a "racial slur against African Americans". However, the Wikipedia article for "sambo" mentions that the word is used as a racist remark in the United Kingdom, as well. I tend to think that the line should mention that "sambo" is used a racial slur against black people, not just "African-Americans", since a black person in the UK most certainly would not want to be called "African American". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.158.61.167 (talk) 13:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Merge suggestion

No need to rehash the account of why people object to Sambo. I'd rather see it all in one place. By the way, the book didn't become controversial; people objected to the hero's name and stereotypical appearance. We also might mention that White Britishers referred to Indian natives as niggers. Just thought I'd fan the flames a bit here. I hope it makes you hot enough to melt you into ghee. --Uncle Ed 15:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to do it, but the reference to "Sambo's grave" on this page should be amended and/or linked to the rather different information on the entry under Sambo's grave (nothing there about being shunned by the people of Heysham, for example). Rosina

IMHO, this article is about the book Little Black Sambo, and quite distinct to the discussion on the term Sambo, and therefore should remain separate. They of course overlap on the use of the word Sambo, but thats not reason enough to merge the two. Suffice to mention each in the other. --Iaindb 01:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, the word "sambo" has deeper roots than the story "Little Black Sambo" therefore, the articles should be kept separate. And it should be addressed that black people living in other parts of the world, besides the United States, are not considered African-Americans. In fact, none of the black people I know refer to themselves as African-Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.96.119 (talk) 21:19, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

scans wanted?

I have a copy of a 1979 print of the book, which looks like an "original" (ie. it resembles the description of the original given in the article). Would it be worthwhile providing scans of any of the images, or copies of the text, copyright permitting?--Iaindb 01:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

My edits

I have removed this section:

Although Bannerman's story is set in India, the illustrations in the original edition use darky iconography (see golliwog), portraying Sambo with black skin, wildly curly hair, and bright red lips and I have also removed a reference that singles out African Americans. Let me explain why.

The removed sentence is nonsense. The original illustrations by Helen Bannerman show a Southern Indian or Tamil child - grossly caricatured, but recognisable. Clearly whoever wrote the above passage has never travelled to India. The people from the southern parts of India have very dark skin, curly hair - all as illustrated. To take the ridiculously Americanocentric view that Bannerman was somehow taking a pop at people of African (and specifically African American) origin is absurd. It shows her European (specifically British) Colonial prejudices about the Indian nation, nothing whatsoever to do with Africa or African Americans. What happened later in the book's history is another matter, and does have a relevance to black people including African Americans, but no revisionism, please. The original book was about Indians, and the original illustrations showed Indians. 81.157.194.144 (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

More edits

Also, I see someone has got the illustrations confused, incorrectly putting the frontispiece of the American edition illustrated by Florence White Williams (1900-1953) (which shows a child of African origin) as the original 1899 frontispiece. I shall sort it out. 81.157.194.144 (talk) 16:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Additions by Kirk Shrewsbury

The following paragraphs were recently added by Kirk Shrewsbury. While there's information in them that could usefully be added to the article, the tone seemed unencyclopedic, and the user signed them, so it seemed to me that the issues they bring u pwould be more profitably moved here until someone has time to incorporate them into the article. In particular, the second paragraph seems to be Kirk Shrewsbury's personal opinion, and the parts of it that are factual require citation. —Dominus (talk) 16:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The unfortunate coincidence of the name Sambo with the common African-American male first name Sam, and the practice of making such common first names into racial slurs, should be noted. In America, "Sambo" is in practice little different than Hymie (Jews) and Fritz (Germans) as negative racial generalizations. In fact, noted abolitionist and womens rights activist Elizabeth Cady Stanton used the term Sambo commonly to refer generically to the supposedly inferior black male fully half a century before the publication of Little Black Sambo. Having spent many years as an abolitionist, then seeing voting rights given black males but not white women, and believing that white women were clearly and inherently superior to black males, she asserted she was disinclined to stand aside and watch Sambo walk through the pearly gates before she did. Consequently, it is difficult to believe that Little Black Sambo is a primary source of this common negative racial Sambo stereotype, although it may have been leveraged to this use.--Kirk Shrewsbury (talk) 08:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

In the 1970's, the predominate version of the book available in the U. S. was entirely sanitized and fully East Indian in character, featuring an obviously Indian child, tigers (which live in India but not in Africa), and pancakes which appear to be butter nans, a peculiarly Indian bread dish. Whereas the original Bannerman version showed a corpulent black mammy-like character, the mother was now a slender East Indian woman in a sari. Blackness appeared to be nothing more than a personal characteristic, common in South India, as elsewhere.--Kirk Shrewsbury (talk) 08:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

References

Is Sambo really Shambo?

I know Shambo is a real Indian name. I suspect Sambo may be a british spelling. Sometimes the H's are very subtle so words like Satya can also be spelled Sathya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.9.220 (talk) 12:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

An anonymous editor has twice added a detailed section about a purported etymology of the name "Sambo". For example, here:

Sambo as an Indian word is a modified form of Shambhoo or Shambhu the name for lord Shiva one of the major three deities in Indian mythology, who was self incarnated. Shambhu in turn is derived from Swayambhu which means someone who is self-manifested or created by its own accord. Also Svayambhuva Manu is the first man (analogous to Adam) in Hindu mythology as he is also self manifested. In the story Sambo is shown to be of Tamilian origin, people in Tamilnadu follow Hinduism and hence have Hindu names but being closer to equator have comparatively darker complexion.

However, this appears to be irrelevant to this article. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Sambo" was in use in English as a nickname for a dark-skinned person as long ago as 1704. The OED gives the etymology of "Sambo" as being from Spanish "zambo", or perhaps from Fula. The Online Etymology Dictionary also suggests the Fula origin.

24.7.57.172 (talk) 10:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC) none of those etymologies are names of children.

It may be that Bannerman, the author of Little Black Sambo, intended her "Sambo" to be "a modified form of Shambhoo or Shambhu the name for lord Shiva". But the anonymous author has not presented any evidence that this is true.

The anonymous author also claims that "In the story Sambo is shown to be of Tamilian origin." I believe this is actually false. Sambo is not shown to be of Tamil origin in the story.

24.7.57.172 (talk) 10:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC) shambhoo is not just a tamilian name it is a very common name from kashmir to bengal to tamil nadu, for all the hindus, just like for all christians jesus may be a common name in all languages, check if you can find krishna a name of hindus from any part of india. another example is "shankar mahadevan" is tamilian (incidently both shankar and mahadevan are names of shiva), and ravi shankar lived in bengal. you can find kashmiri brahmin hindus of name shankar, like shankar kaul, shankar mattoo etc. shankar is a similar common hindu name.

In short, until some reliable evidence is presented, this is just some anonymous author's theory. "Sambo" may indeed be a variation on the name of Shiva, but there is no clear connection to Little Black Sambo, the book that is the subject of the article.

a couple of things. one whether tamilian or non-tamilian (bengali or northern indian, kashmiri) shambhoo means same thing, which is shiva, the names of all hindus based on hindu gods are same, a lot of tamilians are named krishna, which could also be a north indian or a bengali (east indian) hindu name as well.

Other than that there is no explaination of a person named sambo being in india, forget imported name from something african in 1800s or even now.

crux is that the sambo of little black sambo is absolutely unrelated to anything or african origin, and the only connection for a man from india named sambo is shambhoo. ask that to any indian guy in your office. 24.7.57.172 (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

a couple of questions:

1. is the story set up in india or africa? 2. could the subject be indian or african? 3. could the subjects name be indian or african? 4. did author live in india or africa?

5. the other reference of sambo is from the 1700's sambo's grave from the sambo of carribean ship. there is no evidence that the other sambo was african, other than that the locals assumed him to be.

6. sambo is 'not' a name in any african language, in some languages it means uncle, but no child is named as uncle.

here is a link out of the millions you can find on google on shambhu, shambhoo or Shambo (check out the indian bull Shambo in UK, why would they name it african?)

http://www.greenwaysroad.com/slokaFiles/shambunatanam2.pdf

until you find evidence that the subject of little black sambo is not indian please dont remove that, you may add the above link as evidence, else you may choose to keep yourself and others ignorant.

Once a word is highjacked like swastika/aryan or swayambhu, it becomes german/african anything, as if they know the breakup of the word and meanings. Wish all of us knew a little bit of sanskrit. btw how many of the people discussing here know sanskrit, hindi, hinduism or have any indian friends or know people of indian names from different parts of india?

24.7.57.172 (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

—Dominus (talk) 16:10, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with everything you are saying above, but not all of us Americans are are entirely culturally inexperienced with things Indian. One of my first bosses in my home state was named Sampat, a young electronics engineer from India. His last name started with Ram, so we called him "Sam the Ram." There are lots of Indians here in the U.S. I worked in India for four months once, and while there, learned the Devanagari alphabet so I could read signs, etc., in Hindi and Marathi. I was initially surprised by seeing swastikas, but learned what they meant. I attended an indigenous church where I was the only non-Indian present, and the elements of the service switched between three languages. My children are one-eighth East Indian. They had an East Indian great-grandfather from the West Indies. His grandparents came to Jamaica in the 19th century. (Incidentally, his name was Sammy.) The children have ancestry from four continents, so it was difficult to keep up with educating them about all of the kinds of cultural heritage they possessed. (That includes three kinds of Indian--East Indian, West Indian, and American Indian.) But when they were quite small, guess what was one of the books I read to them? Little Black Sambo! I loved this highly memorable book when I was a child, and what a perfect way to show my small children some people, animals, clothing, food, etc. from India! Plus, being titled as it was, it helped me communicate to them the important lesson that it is a perfectly good and normal thing to be black. It helped me get the jump on negative elements coming from both black and white American culture about skin color and assert my point-of-view that one's skin color is just another bodily characteristic like one's height or one's weight.

Kirk Shrewsbury (talk) 21:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Another cartoon

Does anyone remember anther cartoon that's more accurate to the book? I remember one that the tigers actually ran around the tree and turned into butter. I really want to see it again, but can't find it.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.79.71 (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Wish someone add the story's history in Taiwan

I am from Taiwan and I have read this story in children's book. I look this up because I couldn't remember what exactly I read. I remember the illustration of the boy was black, half naked with short curl hair, but my memory could be distorted. I was amazed to know that this simple story has its own international history. The article mentioned the book was published in Japan, and I know that many stories books I read were pirated from Japan. I wonder if this story I read was pirated from Japan, too.111.251.197.3 (talk) 13:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Another restaurant

Had the same problem, located in Lincoln City, Oregon. Originally known as "Pixie Pancakes" in 1957, it was renamed "Lil Black Sambo's" in the 60s after the story & forced to rename itself as "Lil Sambo's". No connection to the chain. And I'm eating breakfast there as I type this. --llywrch (talk) 17:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

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removed invisible comment

I have removed the following comment, which was hidden using html tags.

This has nothing to do with the subject of the article except for one of the character's names' being similar In 1957, an illustrated children's book, Come To Eat (בואו לאכול), written by Avigdor Hameiri and illustrated by Mariam Bartov, was published in Hebrew in Israel. It tells the story about Mother Mambo and Father Sambo trying to get their little boy Bambo to eat his supper. Only after Bambo watches a series of animals only too happy to eat his food does he learn his lesson and come home to eat his supper. The story contains no racist overtones and reads as any number of stories of mildly rambunctious children.--> WotherspoonSmith (talk) 05:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

References