Talk:Guido von List

I find it odd...

Adolf Hitler's name does not appear in the article about Guido von List -- not once. Aren't your Readers aware that Hitler lived in Vienna from 1907 to 1913, when List and Liebenfels where at their height?

I would question whether there really is much of a link between the two men, or even their work. Granted, List's publications influenced members of A. Hitler's inner circle, but every reliable account I have read asserts that A. Hitler did not care a whit for the subject of much of List's works. Hitler used the romanticised ideas of German history popular during that period of time as propaganda, and even those ideas did not overlap much with List's work except in the cases where List wrote on political topics. The last part there might be a valid connexion. We would need more data to work with in order to add something about it to the article. You are welcome to do so, of course.

Is there a reason that you feel that A. Hitler should be mentioned somewhere in the article? If there is a connexion we are missing, this is a good place to mention your thoughts. P.MacUidhir 00:55, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there was any direct contact between Hitler and List. Hitler was still an unnotable loser, at that time; afaik he was "one step removed" so to speak: we do link to Hitler from Lanz von Liebenfels. A link to Nazi mysticism is also in order, since that's what List's stuff essentially is, but Ariosophy, the more exact term, is already a redirect there. Of course, the way we more or less arbitrarily link to Houston Stewart Chamberlain, there is no reason not to mention Hitler, either, e.g. "von Liebenfels, who in turn came to be an influence on Adolf Hitler". I suppose the only thing List and Hitler had in common was their rabid Anti-Semitism. I think Hitler only became active in 1918, when List was already wasting away. dab (ᛏ) 06:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

   * In regard to the comment "I suppose the only thing List and Hitler had 
   in common was their rabid Anti-Semitism." I have only ever seen speculation 
   about this and no fact. I have read Lists works in German and also the translated
   ones into English and find no such thing. I would like very much some fact's 
   supporting that he was anti-Semitic. Also, I find today that anyone who criticises 
   a Jew or the state of Israel is ignorantly labled a Nazi and anti-semitic so I
   reject mere speculation and uneducated 'facts'. This also happens today so any
   information that is reasonable on his 'anti-semitism' would be greatl;y appreciated.

I am puzzled by your need to assert this silliness about how misunderstood anti-Semites are here. Are you disingenuous enough to believe that List is NOT deeply intricated with the development of cuckoo German nationalism, resulting in Nazism? Or just disingenuous enough to believe he "didn't mean it" and was "taken out of context"? In any case, List was an equal-opportunity racialist: he despised Czechs, Poles, Russians and Hungarians too. NaySay (talk) 21:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

INCORRECT

A circle formed around Baron von Sebottendorf that via the “Teutonic Order” in 1918 in Bad Aibling became the “Thule Gesellschaft”.

Dietrich Bronder (“Before Hitler Came”) and E. R. Carmin (“Guru Hitler”) named the leading members as follows:

1 Baron Rudolf von Sebottendorf, Grand Master of the Order 2. Guido von List, Master of the Order 3. Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels, Master of the Order 4. Adolf Hitler, “Führer”, German Chancellor 5. Rudolf Hess, Vice Führer, and SS Obergruppenführer 6. Hermann Göring, Reichsmarschall and SS Obergruppenführer 7. Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer SS and Reichsminister 8. Alfred Rosenberg, Reichsminister and NS-Reichsleiter 9. Hans Franck, Dr. Dr. h. c., NS-Reichsleiter and Governor General of Poland 10. Julius Streicher, SA-Obergruppenführer and Gauleiter of Franken 11. Karl Haushofer, Prof. Dr., Major General ret. 12. Gottfried Feder, Prof. Dr., Secretary of State ret. 13. Dietrich Eckart, Editor in Chief of the “Völkischer Beobachter” 14. Bernhard Stempfle, father confessor and confidant of Hitler 15. Theo Morell, personal physician of Hitler 16. Franz Gurtner, president of the police, Munich 17. Rudolf Steiner, founder of the antroposophic teaching 18. W. 0. Schumann, Prof. Dr. at the Technical University Munich 19. Trebisch-Lincoln, occultist and traveller to the Himalayas 20. Countess Westrap

I can provide countless other references confirming this if you wish. Guido von List was a leading member of the Thule Gesellschaft, however the society WAS NOT concerned greatly with the occult (as is popular myth) but with a study of German Antiquity. It's original name was Studiengruppe für germanisches Altertum" (Study Group for German Antiquity). A facade of occult study hid a counter-revolutionary activism of stockpiled weapons; schemes to kidnap the Communist leader, Kurt Eisner; infiltration of spies into the Communist cadres; and the Kampfbund Thule paramilitary group.

References for above assertion: - Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, The Occult Roots of Nazism. Wellingborough, Northamptonshire, U.K.: Aquarian Press, 1985. hb, 293pp, illust, ISBN: 0-85030-402-4. Also see: Gemäss Glowka (1981:25) soll die Thule-Gesellschaft als "Verein zur Pflege deutscher

Despite these references, my feeling is the Thule Gesellschaft was more smoke and mirrors to hide the real purpose of the society (a covert store for arms, anti Communist terrorism and political infiltration). The membership list (even though secret at that time) may have been exaggerated to puff up their image to new recruits and sympathizers. Many of those listed above may never or seldom have attended meetings as is indicated by the accounts of the few meetings that have survived.

Mrfh (talk) 00:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

'Germanic mysiticism' link

When clicking the 'Germanic mysticism' link, one is redirected to the 'Nazi mysticism' article. Though I myself am less scholared in this subject I don't quite approve of this simplification; it contributes to the common opinion that everything related to subjects such as germanic lore, biogenetic research on racial distinctions and philosphies and ideologies concerning inferiority/superiority (read: Nietzsche)are considered Nazi and therefore studied with heavy prejudice and lack of objective consideration. Any comments/explanations?

Dagfinn

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Date Conflict

"In the spring of 1919, at the age of 71, List and his wife set off to recuperate and meet followers at the manor house of Eberhard von Brockhusen, a List society patron who lived at Langen in Brandenburg, Germany. A circle formed around Baron von Sebottendorf that via the “Teutonic Order” in 1918 in Bad Aibling became the “Thule Gesellschaft” with Guido von List named as "Master of the Order" (a title he shared with fellow member Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels)."

Clearly he could not have arrived in Langen in the Spring of 1919 and been "Master of the Order" of the Thule Gesellschaft in 1918 (unless he accepted the title before his arrival). Both claims are well referenced so an additional source is needed. Can anyone help in this regard. Mrfh (talk) 03:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

List was Student of Blavatsky

List a thoroughgoing "Blavatskyian", doubtlessly, from at least 1899 when he composed an an article under the influence of Sebaldt.

In any case, if any one does not know as factually established, "Ariosophy" and "Theosophy" are closer kindred conceptually than is conventionally acknowledged. Aryan ("white") dominion is one of the first principles of Theosophy, in fact:

"I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth - yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, - the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth - and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as Popul Vuh and a few others unknown to Science" (Letter 93B, "Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnett", Chronological Edition).

This is just for any polemicists who desire to argue Theosophy was not "racist" for whatever reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.52.186.148 (talk) 08:00, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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