Talk:Islam in Pakistan

What is the Role of Religious Parties in Pakistan

Raja Dahir was Holding the Hajj Pilgrims from Sarandeep (Sri Lanka) Island by Sea Ship Hostage for Ransom

The assertion in the following text of the article: '..this was due to the fact that Raja Dahir had given refuge to numerous Zorostrian Princes who had fled the Islamic invasion of Iran. The Arabs demanded their return to face forced conversion or death and they refused to return. Mohummad Bin Qasim's army was defeated in his first thee attempts....' is untrue. Mohammad bin Qasim was sent by the Governor of Kufa under the order of the Omayyad Caliph from Damascus to liberate the pilgrims. Mohammad bin Qasim's army was victorious & was never defeated otherwise he would have not conquered the province of Sind & he would not be a 'Hero of Sind'. It is also untrue, he did not conquer the province of Punjab, which was conquered later by others.Ilaila (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Sunni is actually 90%

sunni is actually 90% and Shia 9%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Pakistan#Religions

Islam brought about by pirs

This article seems to convey that people of the subcontinent were converted to Islam only due to pirs. Some pirs might have entered the subcontinent in the eighth century (we would like to see some references on that), but all unbiased historians would agree that massive conversion of South Asian populations to Islam -- which accounts for the 450 million Muslims in the region today -- was brought about only during Islamic rule, due to policies which are discussed elsewhere in wikipedia. Selective presentation of history by not mentioning the Islamic invasions, and attributing the presence of Islam in the subcontinent completely to pirs is highly objectionable. 70.105.188.134 02:26, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)yes i am agree with you but actually islam was brought by mohammad bin qasim in this region not by religious parties

I agree with you for the most part. Yet Pirs did have a strong role in spreading Islam, especially among the lower castes. They made Islam the most appealing to the Indian people as opposed to the sword-wielding fury of the Ghazanvids, the Ghorids or some of the Mughals. Some of them, such as Shirdi Sai Baba and Chishti, have gained fame even among the Hindus. Yet, much of the Indian population also embraced Islam due to fear of death. I think both should be treated with equal importance, as they are probably the dominant factors as to why 30-40% of the people on the subcontinent follow Islam. -[[Afghan Historian 17:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)]]

If no one has any objections, I will modify the article in two days 70.105.188.134 02:33, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article states Islamic dogma as though it were fact ("Because the Prophet established a government in Medina...") and quite clearly expresses disapproval of Ahmadi Muslims, going as far as to append the adjective "heretical" to them, when no adjective is necessary. It defines Ahmadis as "a small group known to be outside the pale of Islam according to the teachings and tenets of all branches of Islam, both Sunni and Shia." I would edit the article, but I really know next to nothing about the subject. Sammy1339 22:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sammy "Ahmadis" are not Muslims at all because they do not accept the few of the very primary standards to be accepted as a Muslim. Those standards are fundamentally important in their conception that whosoever denies it is anything but a Muslim. To name one is the belief on Muhammad (PBUH) as the last Prophet of God on mankind, which they do not accept and henceforth they are not accepted as "Muslims" but called "Ahmadis" or "Qadianis". I hope its clear why they are not Muslims.

Dear sir, reading above lines, I felt that you lack knowledge on above subject as well. If they (in your words do not accept Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as last Prophet) then it is your belief too. I think you also belief that Prophet Isa will return some time later and he will remain a "Prophet". Now why you think that make you also not Muslim. You have a similar belief as well. When you say "Belief" than its mean, you are 100% sure and you can present proove also. Can you provide some ? if not, then we should take it as a baseless arguments. regards phippi46 13:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

reply to phippi46 "Prophet Isa will return some time" he is going to return not to teach us something new but to continue the law that has already been given and to remove all the alligations that were put on him .And reading your remarks i think you are islamaphobic124.29.195.111 15:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

And how do you know what he is going to do? He had 1000+ years to change his mind!

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Salafi Statistics

Im not desputing whether the salafi statistics are real or not because I dont have knowledge on the subject but there is no references so id like to see a reference as I wanted to check teh source of information to learn more about the subject. thanks.

Abdurrahman

Ahmadis

Ahmadis are not considered Muslims under the constitution of Pakistan and by Muslims. The edit war to change the facts is unfortunate. The Ahmadi editors are reverting not only this fact but also other changes I made in media and Education section which has nothing to with Ahmadis.AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

first of all, i am not an ahmadi (this just displays your lack of maturity). secondly, no one give a damn about the constitution of pakistan. thirdly, ahmadis are allowed to consider themselves muslim in rest of the world (and in most of the islamic world) i.e. in the civilized world. fourthly, there are christian who believe that catholics or mormons are non-christian. there are muslims who think ahmadis, shias or shia ismailis (the sect of the founding father of pakistan, jinnah) are non-muslim. in iraq, many shias consider the sunnis non-muslim and vice-versa! these are point of views and have no place in wikipedia. fifthly, let me also remind you that one of the greatest leaders of jinnah's muslim league was an ahmadi, namely muhammad zafrulla khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Zafrulla_Khan). ahmadis were declared non-muslims by pakistan only in 1973 (something jinnah would never have approved). pakistan might even consider them as muslims again in the future. so please, stop editing, before you get yourself banned due to vandalism (this has happened to the other anti-ahmadi kids).mustihussain 18:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I said "Ahmadi editors" in general and not specifically to you by quoting your name. As you said "this just displays your lack of maturity". You wrote "no one give a damn about the constitution of pakistan" that shows your disrespect for laws of Pakistan. You said that "ahmadis are allowed to consider themselves muslim ..... the civilized world". So which part of the world is civilized in your judgement ? Zafrullah Khan did not perform Namaz Janaza (death service) for Mohammad Ali Jinnah and sat in non-Muslim section at that time. The tone of your comments does not help but instead damages your point of view. AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

apologies for my tone but the laws in pakistan are barbaric. you ask me what part of the world is civilized. the answer is simple: the part of the world that is civilized is the part where all pakistanis try to escape to, legally or illegally. regarding jinnah and khan, i don't care about their personal matters. what matters is that muslim league was not a sectarian organization where ahmadis or shias or sunnis or ismailis or whatever were declared non-muslim. let me also remind you that jinnah was declared to be non-muslim by the same people who forced pakistan (through terror and mob violence) to denote ahmadis as non-muslim. the same people who were against jinnah and pakistan in the first place! the ability to discern between personal and public matters is essential for any civilized country, it's essential for wikipedia. you have a lost case, don't get yourself banned. rather, free your mind. peace. mustihussain 19:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not support Jamaat policially. The Shia sect was created just after death of Mohammad. So it has been part of Islamic history. Ismailis broke from Shia have their Imamate. They are considered part of Islamic historic evolution. None of the leaders of these sects has claimed to be prophets as did Ghulam Ahmad and that even under the colonial rule with divide and rule policy. In any case the Ahmadis have crossed the rubicon by believing that Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet and have been declared non-Muslims. Their continued insistence of being Muslims only creates more hostility. I do not support any violence against Ahmadis or their property. But this issue is one of many reasons used by some people. In my view the issue was resolved in 1974 but it seems it both Ahmadis and Jamaatis wants to keep it simmering. In Wikipedia, their insistence of being Muslims which they clearly are not under Islam theology only creates more problems. Your continued threats of banning me from Wikipedia shows that you have more in common with people, as you say and I quote, who force their views "through terror and mob violence". You have displayed more raw emotions, misplaced anger and threats, which as you say are "uncivilized". AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 02:14, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

how come ahmadis create hostility? they can insist on whatever they want. period. if people get agitated by ahmadis it's their bloody problem. it's not a matter of the state. however, it should be worrisome for pakistan that such a large portion of its population is so immature. you also have to remember the barbaric laws that are in place in pakistan against ahmadis. you can read about them here on wiki. when did i threaten to ban you? i said you will get banned. that is a fact not a threat. i personally don't want to ban you, however, someone else will as this has happened before. also, equating getting banned by wiki with "terror and mob violence" is beyond proportions, laughable and ridiculous. cheap rhetorics. showing raw emotions, anger? that's hilarious. i am sarcastic yes. i'll admit that but i'm not emotional. btw, regarding ismailis and other shias: sunni fundamentalists and wahabis consider them non-muslim (just take a look at iraq or the statements made by wahabies in pakistan!). by declaring ahmadis non-muslim the goverment of pakistan opened the floodgates to islamic fundamentalism. you can see the consequences in pakistan today (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YeIr30ASaI). that is why more wiser nations refuse to take part in braindead religious discussions about who is infidel and who is not. that is why religious "point of views" are not tolerated in wiki. one more thing: i am not a pakistani but my sympathies lies with the pakistani people still. but pakistan will not progress until the difference between religious opinions and state matters is understood. i have hope that you will and contribute to change in pakistan which is so desperately needed. peace.mustihussain 12 March 2010. —Preceding undated comment added 10:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC).

Nonetheless, you wrote "no one give a damn about the constitution of pakistan" and "barbaric laws" and that cuts both ways since Ahmadis and their opponents have the same attitude and follow law of the jungle, When you have this attitude then don't compain about "immature" Pakistanis. They have been more mature and have never elected any Islamic party in position to form a government. Nobody opened the floodgates of fundamentalism it was natural political development as country became more religious. Look at India, they also went on path of Hindutva and resulted in violence. Ismailis, Bohras, Hindus, Zikris in Pakistan don't have an aggresive agenda and they don't have major problems. I think it is same as the squeaky wheel getting the grease. Look at Peaceworld111 going in every "Islam in ..." and adding number of Ahmadis in that country. I don't see Ismailis doing that. My Ismaili friends mother was born in Nigeria and she mentioned she still have relatives there. There no Ismailis going on every webpage and adding that information. So if you add sugar then don't complain about the flies. AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

to say that pakistan has draconic/barbaric laws, from the viewpoint of human rights, is unproblematic. many pakistanis have come to the same conclusion, especially women. but this is another and longer discussion. i will not equate ahmadis with their opponents. it's like equating the the victim with the offender. ahmadis have a missionary agenda for sure. but so has sunnis, wahabies ,catholics, protestants, and so on and so forth. will you really get irritated if ismailis began to imitate ahmadies here on wiki? so what if peaceworld provides information about the ahmadis around the world. the ahmadiyya sect is one of the fastest growing islamic sects in the world. many have pointed out that this is one of the bizarre achievement of the stupidities of 1974. this is even pointed out by people who disagree with ahmadis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mz30QgDROc). the more you suppress a sect or a nation the more resistant this sect and nation will become. in fact, this is precisely how christianity spread and became dominant in the roman empire! ironic isn't it?mustihussain 12 March 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 13:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC).

Ahmadis may not be considered muslims by Pakistan, but that doesn't and shouldn't take away their right of claiming to be muslims. It has already been mentioned in the edit that accoding to Pakistan law they are not muslims - and that is enough.Peaceworld111 (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem started when Ghulam Ahmad declared himself a prophet and messiah. So chronologically, we have to mention that first. I would say in 19xx Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared himself to be prophet and messiah and he was declared non-Muslim as per Islamic law. You don't start the paragraph complaining about treatment of Qadianis. All events has to be mentionioned as they happened over time. Ahmadis "claim" that they are Muslims but their claim is not accepted by Muslims. AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 02:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

ImprovedPeaceworld111 (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Links

>> Pakistan's madrassas reined in by government(Lihaas (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)).

Orphaned references in Islam in Pakistan

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islam in Pakistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Walsh":

• From Inter-Services Intelligence: Walsh, Declan (28 July 2011). "Pakistan's military accused of escalating draconian campaign in Balochistan". The Guardian. London.
• From Sufism in Pakistan: Walsh, Judith E. (2006). A Brief History of India. Old Westbury: State University of New York. p. 58.
• From Sufism in India: Walsh

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:48, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Islam in Pakistan

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Islam in Pakistan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "World Scientific":

• From Hudood Ordinances: Michael Heng Siam-Heng, Ten Chin Liew (2010). State and Secularism: Perspectives from Asia§General Zia-ul-Haq and Patronage of Islamism. Singapore: World Scientific. p. 360. ISBN 9789814282383.
• From Pakistan: Michael Heng Siam-Heng; Ten Chin Liew (2010). State and Secularism: Perspectives from Asia. Singapore: World Scientific. p. 202. ISBN 978-981-4282-37-6. Retrieved 28 December 2011.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:24, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Yes, take a look at Nasabi and Rafi

117.234.18.224Yes, take a look at Nasabi and Rafi HammadShakeel911 (talk) 14:58, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

117.234.18.224 Yes, take a look at Nasabi and Rafi Now tell me, who is Nasabi and who is Rafi? HammadShakeel911 (talk) 15:00, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Polite request not to vandalize articles about Islam in Pakistan.

I politely request (so as not to invite any retribution for whistleblowing) the Indian editors not to edit Sufism in Pakistan in a way that Hazrat Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, who was an orthodox saint is made to look like the founder of Qalandariya (which is something different even though he does have many Hindu followers now) as well as the most important Sufi saint in Pakistan, even more important than Bahauddin Zakariya, Jalaluddin Shurkh-Posh Bukhari and Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Why are we the majority Ahle Sunnat/Sunni/Barelvi muslims always made to look like non-muslims and anyone who keeps money in Islamic banks is labelled Najdi Wahhabi and Kharijite or Iranian Rafidha when it is actually India that doesn't let Pakistan have a Barelvi bank? 103.232.102.25 (talk) 14:35, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

we are maliki shadhili muslims by deen. we believe uk and russia are supporters of muslims and uk is friend of muslims. we also believe india, eu, china and usa, particularly india, are not supporters of muslims. M-shahruz-z (talk) 16:15, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I have noticed my wrong use of language and want to apologize for it. When I said Hazrat Lal Shahbaz Qalandar has many Hindu followers now, what I meant was many Hindu claim to be his followers now, not that Hazrat Lal Shahbaz Qalandar Rahmatullahi was not a serious muslim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.232.102.25 (talk) 11:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Citation seem to fail verification

Previous status there after Edit difs 1140023379 & 1140024654 seem to differ on ".. In Pakistan, the (Barelvi? or Deobandi ?) school of thought has a majority following ..".

Either of the choice seem to fail citation verification. As of now citation is of Arshi Saleem Hashmi url=http://prr.hec.gov.pk/jspui/handle/123456789/887 the cited article seem to have different focus.

Either of following template may be suitable.

Template:Failed verification

Template:Request quotation

Template:Citation needed

Template: Additional citation needed

IMHO In cases authoritative population statistics unlikely to be available if any authors close to govt or establishment are quoted then ok but where independent academic sourcing is possible that also should be mentioned. I suppose enough quality sourcing is likely to be available.

• Pinging for being one of the editor :@RegentsPark, the other ip editor intimated on their (ip) talk page

Bookku (talk) 06:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Well I gave a brief google book search I came across following books.

• Faith-Based Violence and Deobandi Militancy in Pakistan. United Kingdom, Palgrave Macmillan UK, 2016. Page 95
• Sadiq, Yousaf. The Contextualized Psalms (Punjabi Zabur): A Precious Heritage of the Global Punjabi Christian Community. United States, Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2020. Page 93
• Basit Abdul, Barelvi Political Activism and Religious Mobilization in Pakistan: The Case of Tehreek-e-Labaik Pakistan (TLP) - Politics, Religion & Ideology, 2020 - Taylor & Francis Pages 374-389

Bookku (talk) 14:00, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bookku: If you mean the statement "In Pakistan, the Barelvi school of thought has a majority following, however there are more madrasas (Islamic seminaries) of the Deobandi doctrine." then you might want to consider just removing it. --RegentsPark (comment) 15:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Temporarily I placed failed verification template. The discussion previous to this one indicates users may have strong opinions hence I shall prefer a little more discussed action. Pinging @OneGuy since they started the discussion and also @Louis P. Boog seem to have made some edit to the article previously and editor in these topic areas. Bookku (talk) 14:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Owais Al Qarni I request you to read above discussion. Adjoining citation seem to fails first part of the sentence for either of the version. Hence I placed failed verification template and that template still would be valid until alternate RS citation is provided. Unless all agree to remove the sentence itself, one is expected to provide alternate reliable source. I do not see edit warring to be a proper solution. Bookku (talk) 02:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bookku: See Again in p. 199 which available online. See first para entitled "Jamat-e-Islami- & JUIF -Gen Zia Allaince". " Deobandis are majority.–MinisterOfReligion ^(Talk) 03:02, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@ @Owais Al Qarni: can you provide the online link since I am trying url=http://prr.hec.gov.pk/jspui/handle/123456789/887 that sounds like more of an opinion piece and I am not getting para you mention. I do not see any page numbers either.

url=http://prr.hec.gov.pk/jspui/handle/123456789/887 quotes Asgar Ali Engineer saying ".. Islam is in the majority over there. .." May be link you are referring to is different and that you can provide and cite. Bookku (talk) 03:16, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• After user @Owais Al Qarni updated citation details in the article, I could check page number and text of Student Arshi Saleem Hashmi's Phd paper and reference stands verified.
• Though I will encourage @Owais Al Qarni to strive for better understanding about how to evaluate sources on reliability and quality scale and suggest to strive to find additional source if possible.
• @Owais Al Qarni starts updated sentence in the article from "..but some source says..". IMHO it would be advisable to start the sentence with ".. According to Arshi Saleem Hashmi .."
• Thanks @Louis P. Boog for valuable inputs in the article.

Bookku (talk) 06:09, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bookku will attempt to check but have very poor internet connectivity currently. --Louis P. Boog (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

made changes in the lede with a new source, Global Security --Louis P. Boog (talk) 16:06, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Misleading discussion of Islamic sects

when the article says "The majority are Sunni (85-90%)[14][15][16][17][18] while Shias make up between 10% to 15%.[19][15][20][21][22][23] However, the Hanbali school is gaining popularity recently due to Wahhabi influence from the Middle East" it seems to imply that the Hanbali school is another sect of Islam instead of a part of Sunni Islam 216.15.15.59 (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

A concerning edit about minority groups

The concerned edit dif, Idk any sourcing issues but edit summary seems bit like view of a section which some others may disagree too.

Intermittent once in a while deletions about Ahmadiyya from various Wikipedia article can be observed, this deletion attempt also may be one of them. IDK Wikipedia consensus guidelines if any in regarding mention of Ahmadiyya as Muslim.

Will wait for inputs from other users, but in case of no inputs I would contemplate to restore content to previous version. Bookku (talk) 11:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

This was ordinary vandalism. No point of discussing, just feel free to go and revert vandals.

Ahmadiyyas are considered Muslim because Wikipedia accepts self-identification by religious groups as authoritative. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Bookku (talk) 11:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Population of Muslims in Pakistan

The Pakistani govt does not include data for Pakistan-administered areas of Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir. That is why international sources give a higher data of population for Pakistan, and population of Muslims in Pakistan overall. As the Pakistani govt data couldn’t be fully reliable as it excludes some areas of the country from being included in the population census. International sources say that Pakistan have more than 240 million Muslims (Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan included). [1][2] Pineapplethen (talk) 00:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)