Talk:God Defend New Zealand

Lyrics - copyright

So why don't some of you patriotic Kiwis add the lyrics? Presumably they're not copyright --Robert Merkel

As far as I know, copyright on the lyrics is held by the New Zealand government. I will try to contact someone to get the details. Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if some other countries' national anthems are covered by copyright, too. --Carey Evans

If it was written in 1876, copyright has already expired long time ago --Taw

The lyrics are available at http://www.cultureandheritage.govt.nz/anthem/index.htm . The copyright on the lyrics may have expired in the United States (as has everything else first published on or before December 31, 1922), but distributing things online requires worldwide rights, and governments outside the United States are not inhibited by the "limited times" clause of U.S. Const. 1.8.8 and can enact a perpetual copyright on a given work, such as what the UK government did to the Peter Pan cycle. Even then, don't count on anything else expiring in your lifetime.

Thanks - I couldn't have said it better myself. Should something like this go on a more general page on Wikipedia copyrights? --Carey Evans

However, the unaltered lyrics of a national anthem, even in their entirety, would almost certainly be fair use, wouldn't they? --Robert Merkel

I don't know about New Zealand, by the lyrics to Canada's national anthem are in the public domain. I always assumed that it was same worldwide, but someone should surely check it out. -- Stephen Gilbert

I got an email today (2001-10-10) from Haydee Wilton at the Ministy for Culture and Heritage, regarding the copyright. Copyright on the English lyrics expired in 1948. She hasn't found out anything about the Maori lyrics yet, though, so I'll have to be patient until the relevant documentation can be tracked down. --Carey Evans

More info from Ailsa Caid at MCH: the Maori lyrics are covered by Crown copyright, which doesn't expire until 2079. --Carey Evans

If you need to email someone for copyright info, email the Ministry for Culture and Heritage at mailto:info@mch.govt.nz - User:Z.Spy

The copyright purchased by the government was 50 years from the author's death and expired at the END of the year ie from 1 January 1949 not 1948 (ie not on the anniversary of Bracken's birthday which was 16 February); have corrected article Hugo999 (talk) 11:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Pacific's triple star

What does your anthem mean when it says "Guard Pacific's triple star"? As an Aussie I have no idea what this means. -- Grahame Gould (religiousnut@yahoo.com.au)

I don't know either, despite being a New Zealander. It might have something to do with the three colors on the flag (blue, red, and white.)

The meaning behind "guard pacific's triple star" was never confirmed by the original author of the poem, Thomas Bracken. There are three main thoughts: referring to Te Kooti's flag and shows his support for Māori; referring to the three main islands of NZ; or the third star of Alpha Centauri, which has been discounted as the third star was discovered 49 years after the poem was written. Andrew

Sorry, haven't made an account yet, but I'm from NZ. I believe the anthem is referring to the three main islands of NZ with the "triple star" line. "Guard Pacific's triple star" specifically refers to the Pacific Ocean, and it would have to be referring to something physical to guard, rather than three colours I think. -- Mark.

http://www.rfcadet.org.nz/News/general/Flag%20Data.html - ah, don't worry. This answers it to the extent that my curiosity extended. And I'm now a member. -- Grahame

It's a reference to Speights' beer. 103.52.206.154 (talk) 12:29, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Maori lyrics

I'm confused - the Maori lyrics don't quite agree with http://www.mch.govt.nz/anthem/ - seems that some longer words have been broken into shorter ones. Is anyone that knows the language better than I able to reconcile the differences? Tenbaset 03:12, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

MIDI link was broken but ...

I have replaced the MIDI Link that was there:

http://www.copsrus.com/anthems/newzeal.mid MIDI File

as it currently seems broken.

However I am not wildly happy about my replacement and if anyone finds one of better quality I suggest they use it. It's nice to have the sheet music but it's not a professional typeset of it (with the greatest of respect to the person who did it) and has a couple of (not too significant) errors. Nevilley 09:37, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Maori lyrics

According to the edit history of the article, I removed the Maori lyrics. Looking at the edit I do not think it was my work at all and I would not have intentionally removed them; I think the history is messed up. Apologies for any confusion, and I am glad to see the article put right again. Nevilley 18:38, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Copyright information from the Ministry for Culture and Heritage

Has anyone taken a look at http://www.cultureandheritage.govt.nz/copy-right.html ? It has the copyright information from the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. Jusjih 06:17, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

See also Template:NZCrownCopyright.--Jusjih 12:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Multilingual Wikisource has applied the same copyright policy as English Wikisource to disallow fair use and non-commercial licenses, so please do not add copyrighted Maori lyrics to Wikisource through 2078. We can claim fair use at Wikipedia articles but not Wikisource.--Jusjih 05:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

How to sing the song?

Today I observed the assembly of a local primary school on Dominion Road of Auckland. They sing the Maori version first, and then with the key transposed, they sing the English version. Was it the same in other places through New Zealand? -- Tomchiukc 07:10, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have noticed that it has become common practice especially at sporting matches to sing the Maori version first. This may be because in general the Maori version is not as well known, so people sing a bit quieter and not as confident. When you come to the English version everyone knows it and so sings louder and it sounds more impressive. That's just my theory anyway. Evil Monkey → Talk 02:02, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, we kiwis sing the maori version first then the english version. I don't really know why though... Hugh Jass 01:57, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Umm, no, we don't. AJD 20:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

On Anzac day the RSAs sing English then Maori version. 210.86.41.143 08:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm having problems too,being that I'm a Yank.I know the lyrics,yet I can't get the tune right.User:Z.Spy 08:42, 5 October 2005..

The Maori verison is nicer and less religious. so it should be first. And, you want to end with a long "god defend new zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalaaaaaaaaaaannd", and you can't do that with another verse coming along. --Midnighttonight 04:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The official web page explains that there are no set guidelines when singing God Defend New Zealand in both English or Maori. Singing English only, Maori only, English then Maori, and Maori then English are all fine. As some Canadians do mix and alternate English and French lyrics when singing O Canada, has anyone ever heard of mixing and alternating English and Maori lyrics when singing God Defend New Zealand? I have never heard of this.--Jusjih 12:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I nearly always hear it sung Maori first, English second - it's not official, but a very common habit. The article could at least note this (even though evidence is extremely anecdotal). Neftaly 23:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Better not to sing the damn thing

Trust me, it's not just Americans who have problems with it. Many of us Kiwis stare in embarrassment at our shoes wishing the gorund would swallow us up whenever this national anthem is sung, as it is so depressingly dreadful, in English or Maori, especially when we have the misfortune of being in the company of foreigners (or, God forbid, attending a sporting fixture on foreign soil). It's not exactly rousing. It is, however, rather characteristic of the national aptitude for poetry and music. We New Zealanders are very good at rugby. And farming. and DIY. And barbecues. And staring at our shoes with an embarrassed grin whenever our natoinal anthem is sung. Get it over with and get on with the Haka! -- ElectricRay 22:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait, people are entitled to their opinion. I'm across the Tasman, and I think the Australian national anthem is dreadful, but I love the Kiwi one. There's probably thousands who would shoot me, but it's just the opinion.

Having said that, I completely disagree with ElectricRay. The New Zealand National Anthem would have to be among the best in the world in my books. -- Nintenmo

Completely agree with you Nintenmo - few in Australia think much of Advance Australia Fair (lyrics that say little, mediocre and uninspiring tune - not too mention racist, sexist, and imperialist in the verses no longer used), but most who know of it like God Defend NZ. It is certainly one of the better ones around and unquestionably the best national anthem that Australians ever wrote. :) --Vox latina (talk) 07:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm a Kiwi and I hate our anthem. It basically says "God help us". Somebody needs to come up with something a bit less gay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.75.141.91 (talk) 09:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

So there I was just reading the top comment thinking, "yeah! that's right! Exactly! There's someone out there who agrees with me!" --- and then I noticed it was my own comment from eight years ago. Bigkev, trust me I did get the f--k out, best part of 20 years ago, which is wny there is so much cringeing. When at Twickenham, my English mates stare at me in horror when GDNZ is trotted out, as if it's somehow my fault. I mean, "guard pacific's triple star" - what inept sort of doggerel is that? It's a CROSS for crying out loud! There are FOUR stars! I'm gratified you aussies the NZ anthem is good, but really - compared with the Welsh one? or the German one? it's horrible. And the unsigned user it spot on: it says "GOD HELP US". I mean, God HELP us. ElectricRay (talk) 14:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

God save the Queen???

How can this article say that God save the queen is of equal status????? Most people don't know all the words to God Defend nz let alone God Save the queen, I don't even know what that song sounds like.

Because they are both legally NZ's national anthems: "On Monday, 21 November 1977, then Minister of Internal Affairs Hon D A Highet, announced in the New Zealand Gazette 'that the National Anthems of New Zealand shall be the traditional anthem 'God Save The Queen' and the poem 'God Defend New Zealand', written by Thomas Bracken, as set to music by John Joseph Woods, both being of equal status as national anthems appropriate to the occasion'. This action was given with the consent of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II." [1] Ignorantia juris non excusat, nor is ignorance of the words and tune excusable: if you don't know, learn them. You never know what trouble it may bring you. By way of example, see this footage of John Redwood, the then Secretary of State for Wales, making a fool of himself at a Welsh conference. [2]. (PS: please sign comments with four tildes (~).) Alan Davidson 07:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that at our local ANZAC Day celebration, the RSA seems to favour God Save The Queen, and as many people seem to know the words to that as know the Maori version of GDNZ. As an aside, there is a theory that only foreign spies ever know all the verses to a national anthem. Egmason (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Heh, that makes me a foreign spy then... lol. Foreign, yes; spy? Some courier guy freaked out after delivering me a huge envelope from Singapore marked CONFIDENTIAL GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS, when I jokingly told him not to tell anyone about it. It was homework from the GEP in a recycled envelope. So funny. SS✞^(Kay) 07:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Depends on the anthem/country surely. Some old ones in particular like God Defend New Zealand and God Save The Queen seem to have many little used verses so that it's probably not that surprising. There also seems to be resistance to singing the anthem in schools in some countries. Compare to Negaraku which AFAIK doesn't have any extra little uses verses and is only sung in one language (doesn't even have any official translations) and is nearly always sung at schools so many know it. Similarly with Singlish speaker above, Majulah Singapura does't have any little used verses AFAIK and is only properly sung in Malay (although it does have official translations) and is sung in schools so many Singaporeans must know it. Of course I also distinctly remember watching the Australian Who Wants To Be A Millionaire where one of the questions was about one of the commonly sung lines in Advance Australia Fair and the (Australian) contestant didn't know much to Eddie McGuire's chagrin and when he asked the audience their response was surprisingly uncertain (I think it was in a plurality but can't remember if it was over 50% although the audience in the Australian edition always seemed a bit dumb anyway). Nil Einne (talk) 12:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

It's always interesting how these old threads are revived :-D. I guess the point about the spies is that their knowledge of the country tends to be rote-learned, whereas it's fairly well known in New Zealand that God Defend New Zealand is our primary anthem. When I was at primary and high school that was the anthem that we learnt to sing, both languages, but never God Save the Queen. I don't know of any school that actually teaches it. --LJ Holden 23:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation of the Maori lyrics

It would be interesting if somebody could translate the Maori lyrics of the anthem to English. What do you think? Andelarion 17:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You mean literal translation. I support the idea, but I do not understand any Maori, so I cannot do it.--Jusjih (talk) 03:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

do you want it here?

anyway, here it is:

O Lord, God,
Of all people,
Listen to us,
Cherish us,
may good flourish,
May your blessings flow,
[defend] Aotearoa

Let all people
Red skin, white skin
Maori, Pakeha
Gather before you
May all our wrongs, we pray,
Be forgiven
So that we might say long live
Aotearoa

May it be forever prestigious
May it go from strength to strength
May its fame spread far and wide
Let not strife
nor disssension ensue
May it ever be great
Aotearoa

Let its territory
Be ever enlightened
Throughout the land
Let envy and dissension
Be dispelled
Let peace reign
Over Aotearoa

Let its good features endure
Let righteousness and honesty prevail
Among the people of God
Let it never be ashamed,
But rather, let its name be known
Thus becoming a role model to emulate
Aotearoa

Hope this helps! It's really interesting when you compare it to the English singlish_speaker♫ (talk) 05:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I think whero translates as brown. The whero bird is called the brown teal in English, and NZ Maori think of themselves as brown, not red. 122.62.129.228 (talk) 00:14, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Translating colours between languages is a nightmare. Languages became codified before modern artificial dyes were invented and consequently there are too few words chasing after too many hues. The English colour name, 'Red', is not well defined. Bright red hues range from orange to mauve. The darker contrast red colours are centred on 'Blood' but range from 'Rust' to 'Maroon' and 'Burgundy'. Somewhere in that range lie many Brown hues.

Arguing whether a particular hue should be called Red or Brown can be a fruitless task. Mapping Whero (red) and Parauri (Brown) from Te Reo Māori into English is … Well let's just say that it isn't easy. OrewaTel (talk) 14:49, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

RE: How to sing the song

I have always seen the Maori version sung first - in my understanding, it is standard at formal events, sports games and in schools. The likely reason for this is to be politically correct, but I won't go into Wikipedia:OR territory here. I don't believe a citation is needed for the claim that it is common to sing Maori, then English, which is why I removed the tag. Since it seems some people still disagree, discuss? 125.237.26.48 (talk) 06:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

File:God Defend New Zealand manuscript cropped.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:God Defend New Zealand manuscript cropped.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on November 21, 2012. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2012-11-21. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! —howcheng {chat} 23:03, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The original sheet music for "God Defend New Zealand", one of the two national anthems of New Zealand, the other being "God Save the Queen". Legally they have equal status, but "God Defend New Zealand" is more commonly used, and is popularly referred to as "the national anthem". Originally written as a poem, it was set to music as part of a competition in 1876. Over the years its popularity increased, eventually being named the second national anthem on 21 November 1977. The anthem has lyrics in both English and Māori, with slightly different meanings.Composer: John Joseph Woods; Restoration: SMasters

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"Nation's" vs "Nations'"

On my reading of the second sentence of the Criticism section, the text being quoted there is that of the anthem itself and not that of Nancy Swarbrick's article about it. While the latter is being cited to support the statement that the quoted textual items have been criticised for being "old-fashioned or obscure", it is the textual items themselves that are being criticised, and are therefore being referred to by the words in quotation marks, and this means the ones which actually appear in the anthem. Thus, not only is there no need to reproduce any misspellings of those items by Ms Swarbrick, I consider it an error for the article to do so.
David Wilson (talk · cont) 12:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Your point is well made, but I can also see User:Roger 8 Roger's point in insisting that quoted material should remain as written in the source – after all, those words are in quotation marks, which of course could also (wrongly) mark WP:WORDSASWORDS. Maybe the two positions can be reconciled if we follow the MoS and use italics for those words and then silently correct Swarbrick's spelling. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

No! The article says very clearly "the lyrics ... have been criticised". The lyrics say correctly say "nations' van" and that is what should be quoted. Okay, there is a citation to Nancy Swarbrick's article but her misspellings are irrelevant. It is obvious that the lyrics are being quoted and not some article that is referenced via a footnote. Either the article should say, "'nations' van' is criticised" or "the lyrics have been criticised by someone who couldn't be bothered to get them right." My feeling is that the article is about perceived deficiencies in the lyrics and not about the deficiencies of one person criticising them. I strongly suspect that the edit was made by someone who was looking for an excuse to use the tag "[sic]" and didn't care that it made the article less readable. Anyway if nobody comes up with a reason not to, I shall edit the article into understandable plain English and get rid of that pretentious Latin tag.OrewaTel (talk) 10:18, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I also agree that the correct lyrics anthem should be quoted. It is the anthem itself that is being critiqued; Swarbrick is imply incorrectly quoting the anthem. --Hazhk (talk) 15:23, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Macaronic Song

One category has been changed from 'Multilingual Song' to 'Macaronic Song'. This was in response to a consensus that 'Multilingual' should be replaced by 'Macaronic'. The trouble is that God Defend New Zealand is not macaronic. 'Macaronic' essentially means that two languages are mixed together. God Defend New Zealand, on the other hand, has two versions ― one Māori, one English ― which are sung in turn and they are never mixed together. You can make an argument that these are two versions of a monolingual song rather than being a single bilingual song. So since we are not allowed to use Category:Multilingual songs then I would like to simply remove the incorrect Category:Macaronic songs. Having been warned about this edit once, I need to seek other opinions before going ahead. OrewaTel (talk) 05:39, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy for you to remove Category:Macaronic songs, but it should not be replaced with Category:Multilingual songs as that's a redirect. I think the discussion which supported the redirect did not sufficiently consider how to categorise songs which have multiple language versions.-gadfium 06:24, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@OrewaTel: I concur with gadfium. Perhaps it would be useful to ask a clarifying CfD or RfC about this overlooked case? I don't think that asking for clarification of consensus given a case that was not considered would fly in the face of WP:CCC's clause about "proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive", so long as the original parties to the CfD are pinged. That could separate the two with, perhaps, a note in both referring to the other and noting the difference, but then could also run into the issue of having a category that falls into WP:SMALLCAT unless there are several that could be added (just throwing ideas out there). What do you think, gadfium? --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 23:15, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you both for clarifying. Category:Multilingual songs cannot be used because it isn't a real category ― it simply redirects to Category:Macaronic songs. This category designator has only recently been added to God Defend New Zealand and it seems to be a mistake. I shall remove it.OrewaTel (talk) 02:00, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Multilingual or Macromic

A recent edit put this anthem in the Multilingual category and a subsequent edit corrected to Macaronic. Actually this anthem is a single language song but like any song it can be translated into other languages. God Defend New Zealand is unusual in that there is an official translation from English to Te Reo (Māori). Māori is a verbose language that requires more syllables than English to say the same thing and in consequence a direct translation that fits the tune is impossible. Nevertheless the anthem is always sung in just one language – we don't mix the languages. (cx National anthem of South Africa which is a mixture of 5 languages.) Normally the anthem is sung twice, first in Te Reo then in English, but each verse is sung in its entirety in a single language. OrewaTel (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

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Ihowā = Jehovah

There are English language and Te Reo versions of this song. They differ for two reasons. The first reason is that Māori is a verbose language and and you cannot shoehorn it into a terse English tune. To show this we have a direct translation. This works quite well. For example, "Hear our voices, we entreat,\ God defend our free land." (12 syllables) is represented in Te Reo by, "Āta whakarangona; \ Me aroha noa" (13 syllables). The direct back translation is accurate. "Listen to us, \ Cherish us" (7 syllables)

The problem comes from the second reason for the difference. Te Reo does not map directly onto English. Even when words are nominally the same, the nuances are different. This causes problems with any legal document written in both languages. What this means is that even when we are making a direct word for word translation, we must be very careful to choose the correct words. Very often there isn't one word and we need to use a whole phrase. Māori works its words very hard.

Consider the phrase 'Ihowā atua in the first line.

The word 'Ihowā' is a transliteration of 'Jehovah' but it isn't a direct translation. Te Reo doesn't have a word for 'God' (and strictly speaking does not have a word for 'gods'). The nearest is 'atua' which invokes the spirit of potent ancestors. To represent 'God', you can use 'te atua' (the God) but better is 'Ihowā atua'. 'Ihowā atua' could be translated as the 'the essential supernatural spirit that has been called Jehovah'. Since this is a Christian poem that was translated by a Christian missionary, 'Lord God' seems a good translation. OrewaTel (talk) 05:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)