Talk:Cram school

French prep classes and the "elite"

Hi, I find it a bit surprising to see " Graduates from these prestigious schools represente France's elite." written in Wikipedia. This is quite obviously coming from a French person (typo on the verb, conjugated in French) and I bet it's been written by a so-called taupin. However, it'd be much more correct to state that prep school students are over-represented among the nation's political or economic elite. They do not constitute the whole elite since they're originally only 5% of students (a tiny percentage of the French population) and despite the huge financial means they are provided with, and the pre-selection that allows prep schools to get most of the "elite capable" students, people who have not gone to prep schools are also capable of making it to the top.

I would suggest rewriting the sentence as "Graduates from these prestigious schools are usually well represented among the economic elite of France." Besides, for what they're worth, international rankings give a very good standing to Paris VI and (as far as I recall) Paris XII, both of which are not accessible through prep schools. Hence, it would be even better to explain that the majority but not all of prestigious schools recruit the majority but not all of their students through prep schools and that students from those prestigious schools are in very good standing among France's elite.

There are other unclear sentences in the paragraph that make it clear to me that this is mostly about advocating the "grandeur" of prep schools and not informing objectively about them. A statement such as "if not the highest" workload in the world is very dubious without back-ups to the claim (I have in mind here, Chinese cram schools and the whole Japanese and South Korean education systems). Besides, I highly doubt a Grande Ecole final year student works as much as a M2 student. The CPGE-Grande Ecole system puts most of the workload early on the duration of "classic" five-year studies while Facultes tend to gradually increase the workload. I believe the sentence should both contain evidence and be rephrased as, for instance, "As of 20xx, French prep schools had the highest workload in the world, xxxx as much as the average number of work hours for EU/French/OECD/etc students."

Also, I'm not sure whether prep schools are equivalent to cram schools at all. To me, they're most like a parallel school system with higher means and a higher workload. They are in a sense preparing to an examination but the examination to enter most schools is different whether you come from a prep school or whether you're a University undergraduate. Is the term cram school used indiscriminately for schools that prepare for an exam AND schools that must be taken as a prerequisite to taking an exam, or only the former category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.16.6.228 (talk) 20:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

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I agree with the semantic precautions mentioned above, about "elite" representation (CPGE students are well represented among the "elites", but do NOT represent the "elite"). But it is true that the statements mentioned in the section correspond to the general perception of French CPGE system, which stems from reality (eg. MOST high ranking officials, scientists, politicians, managers etc. in France went through CPGE + Grande ecole, which of course creates passionate debates about equity issues and 'elite reproduction'). Concerning "highest" workload, it is indeed a risky statement and should not be mentioned without proper references.

The comment concerning Grande ecole / M2 student is not so relevant here as we are not talking about the CPGE anymore (and as far as I remember students coming from CPGE can directely access Master studies at universities usually after an assessment exam, including at least Paris 6, and i've read that they now even give ECTS). It is rather common indeed that the work load in Grande ecole is less than during CPGE (thankfully!!), but you can find Grandes ecoles which propose a double graduation with M2 from a partner university, with just a few extra classes compared to the sole Grande ecole curriculum during the final year (and sometimes, no extra classes at all).

The national examinations to enter the Grandes ecoles mainly differ according to the specialty chosen during the CPGE. But a university undergrad (and ANYONE, in fact) can register to the national exams. A parralel exam for university graduates now exists, but only since recently (2007), and CPGE students may not register there. The proportions are greatly different (for 'mainstream' state engineering "CCP" grandes ecoles, there were 121 places for university undergrads in 2014, against 3436 for the main CPGE specialties). In some Grandes ecoles, a selected number of places are reserved for non-prepa students (university, tech universities, etc), who go through a different selection process, usually without exams ("admission sur titre" - admission solely considering diploma, ranking, etc), but with specific 'catch up courses' once in there. Some other Grandes ecoles have their own 'internal prepa', so the student follows a 5-year course there to obtain the final degree, instead of 3 years for students from 'external prepas + national exam'.

About the relevance of considering Prepas as Cram schools, prepas prepare you to a national exam, so I think it fits. They are not per se a prerequisite to take the exam, you can still register without.

137.158.153.203 (talk) 10:18, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

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Hi, as one oh the "taupins", I edited the "France" section with my personal knowledge (and experience). I think that all what have been wrote before was not necessarily wrong, but only the best students in the best schools actually work that hard (as in the top five schools, I'm in one of the top 15 schools (Joffre, Montpellier) but I only know one person who can work five hours after class). I also gave more details on the economy and literature branches. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.145.183.209 (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Romain Jamet, MP2 CPGE Joffre, Montpellier, 13/09/2014-21:52(UTC+1) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.145.183.209 (talk) 19:53, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Comment

he every one is there any japanese people reading this can please tell us about the cram schools and the presure of family

I propose a split of this page and adding the term hagwon to Wikipedia. If there are no objections after 7 days, I will go ahead and do it. Davidpdx 09/05/05

Reasons for Proposed Split

The term hagwon, although relating directly to Korea, is a commonly used term.

In the current article for Cram School nothing is mentioned in terms of English schools and little is mentioned about schools in Korea.

Specific information reguarding Korean hagwons is useful in terms of people looking for general knowledge about them.

When searching for the term hagwon, currently Wikipedia redirects to Cram School. Davidpdx 09/05/05 19:50 KST

A split seems acceptable, and eventually as editors add information about each kind of cram school it's likely to happen. If you want to edit Hagwon and put an article there about Korean cram schools, why not do that? And here in Cram School you can put in a link to that article. I arrived at Cram school by searching for Juku (the Japanese term, which also redirects here), and that is a subject about which so much has been written that it seems likely to become an article on its own some day. Other nations' variations likewise. The Cram school article doesn't have to become a "disambiguation article"; instead, it can discuss generalities, and focus on cram schools in English-speaking countries, while containing a section with links to articles on Hagwan, Juku etc. Fg2 01:01, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good. What I'll do is create a page for the term hagwon and then stop it from redirecting Cram School after I have figured out what I'm going to put on that page. Davidpdx09/09/05 3:35pm KST

Most of English learners in Taiwan don't know that the term of "cram school" has bad meaning for English speakers. Be honest, I don't like the term of "cram school". Personally, I prefer "Boo-Shi-Bung" or "Tutoring classes". I believe the term was invented by someone in Taiwan.

It perhaps doesn't popular in other countries in Asia. In Japan, it doesn't used the term "cram school". At least, my Japanese friends didn't understand the meaning of "cram school"

Thus, if the term has bad meaning or it is incorrect, would you mind add some more information to the main page?Miss Chen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.115.227.23 (talk) 14:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I am here because there was a guy linked your page and left a message to me. The guy was trying to challeng me. And he said the them "cram school" is correct and the term "language school" is wrong.:-(~~Miss Chen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.115.227.23 (talk) 14:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Why would a citation be needed for the term being pejorative in the United States? Hellooooo, it's called cram school and the term itself originated here. Cramming has had a negative connotation since its inception. Extracurricular, on the other hand, has positive connotations. 166.250.8.9 (talk) 01:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)Koontar

Bar review

Bar review is not universal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.212.84 (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Turkey

I've just changed "college" to "private school"; because "college" much more often refers to a tertiary institution. And there are other language mistakes, too; so some proofreading would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.194.116 (talk) 08:29, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Cram school

In my opinion, Cram school is an extracurricular class for improve the student‘s grade, Such as Chinese classes, math classes, English classes, but also a comprehensive tutorial, the purpose of cram school is improve student’s grade usually. The reason why we it called a “Cram school” is because cramming means study really hard in slang term.

Education is a natural tendency for conscientious parents to support their children's education, because the shadow education can make students get further promotion, guidance, be ready for the exam. Cram school can provide couple diversification ways of Education, it could help student understand better and to cultivate their interest in learning, due to various reasons, a school may not have the best teachers, but cram school tutoring can enhance students' confidence in competition with others.

But in some countries cram school is controversial; some people think that cram school just keep forcing students to absorb large amounts of information and knowledge rather than giving them opportunity to think. Teaching and learning tutorial, may produce a vicious spiral, so the students in school will feel bored in learning. Because they have learned advance knowledge and skills exam, and tired of the school teacher's teaching style, teaching quality in cram school is higher. Cram school could also cause polarization, because it is for everyone, if you go to cram class and you are a good student and you study really hard, Cram school expand the grade gap between students, it could let teacher feel harder to teach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.62.206.151 (talk) 16:04, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Cram school

In my opinion, Cram school is an extracurricular class for improve the student‘s grade, Such as Chinese classes, math classes, English classes, but also a comprehensive tutorial, the purpose of cram school is improve student’s grade usually. The reason why we it called a “Cram school” is because cramming means study really hard in slang term.

Education is a natural tendency for conscientious parents to support their children's education, because the shadow education can make students get further promotion, guidance, be ready for the exam. Cram school can provide couple diversification ways of Education, it could help student understand better and to cultivate their interest in learning, due to various reasons, a school may not have the best teachers, but cram school tutoring can enhance students' confidence in competition with others.

But in some countries cram school is controversial; some people think that cram school just keep forcing students to absorb large amounts of information and knowledge rather than giving them opportunity to think. Teaching and learning tutorial, may produce a vicious spiral, so the students in school will feel bored in learning. Because they have learned advance knowledge and skills exam, and tired of the school teacher's teaching style, teaching quality in cram school is higher. Cram school could also cause polarization, because it is for everyone, if you go to cram class and you are a good student and you study really hard, Cram school expand the grade gap between students, it could let teacher feel harder to teach.

cram school

Cram school

In my opinion, Cram school is an extracurricular class for improve the student‘s grade, Such as Chinese classes, math classes, English classes, but also a comprehensive tutorial, the purpose of cram school is improve student’s grade usually. The reason why we it called a “Cram school” is because cramming means study really hard in slang term.

Education is a natural tendency for conscientious parents to support their children's education, because the shadow education can make students get further promotion, guidance, be ready for the exam. Cram school can provide couple diversification ways of Education, it could help student understand better and to cultivate their interest in learning, due to various reasons, a school may not have the best teachers, but cram school tutoring can enhance students' confidence in competition with others.

But in some countries cram school is controversial; some people think that cram school just keep forcing students to absorb large amounts of information and knowledge rather than giving them opportunity to think. Teaching and learning tutorial, may produce a vicious spiral, so the students in school will feel bored in learning. Because they have learned advance knowledge and skills exam, and tired of the school teacher's teaching style, teaching quality in cram school is higher. Cram school could also cause polarization, because it is for everyone, if you go to cram class and you are a good student and you study really hard, Cram school expand the grade gap between students, it could let teacher feel harder to teach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.62.206.151 (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

French CPGE : mistakes on time estimations

Being a former CPGE student and sociology researcher on CPGE topics, I can say without a doubt that the above estimations of the workload are largely underestimated.

"36 and 40 hours of class a week, and at least 1 hours of study (the best students can go up to more than 5, they are rare though) every evening after school" Classes usually end at 5.PM, which leaves at least 5 to 7 free hours until midnight : most of this daily free time is dedicated to work.

"as wells as a weekly 2-to-4 hours test" Tests durations range from 2 hours (rather uncommon) to 6 hours (which is the average duration for most economic and literary tests)

"and more work during weekend" There is hardly any free time on week-ends due to the constant urge and permanent situation of delay in work. Saying that free time in a week of CPGE, due to its intensive rythm, is reduced to a couple of hours, most of them being in fact meal times, would be closer to reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB14:5E4:D000:E05E:5B2:210C:1148 (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose merging tuition centre into cram school. They appear to be the same thing: academies that some countries have a culture of sending their school aged children to after school.

It looks like tuition centres may be specific to Malaysia. The article tries to say that tuition centres are "especially abundant and ubiquitous" in the United States, but as an American, I don't think this is true. The phrase "tuition centre" doesn't exist in American English -- we would use a different phrase for the few tutoring centers and after school academies that we have.

Another possible difference is that "tuition centres" seem to use "one-on-one tutoring". However many cram schools use a "classroom" format, for example, in South Korea.

Anyway, I ramble. I think that "tuition centre" should be merged into "cram school", since "cram school" is the bigger, more developed article, and has a healthy list of cram schools by country. If there's no objections, I'll merge this in a few days. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:28, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I decided not to merge tuition centre into this article. I redid the "tuition centre" article to focus on Malaysia and Singapore, where that term is used. I added main templates to the corresponding sections in this article. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)