The term British Isles is a contentious issue. In order to better facilitate discussion of this issue, without swamping other matters, there is a specific talk page for matters relating to the name of this article. Your cooperation with keeping name-related matters on that page would be appreciated by other editors.
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References
The term British Isles is a contentious issue. Academic and other references concerning this controversy can be read here.
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Clarke, Donald (9 January 2016). "Saoirse Ronan being claimed by the UK not 'a compliment'". The Irish Times. Suchet followed these remarks with a patronising tweet featuring a link to the Wikipedia article on the British Isles. We do not know if he read as far as the following paragraph: 'The term British Isles is controversial in Ireland, where there are objections to its usage due to the association of the word British.'
Seriously guys wtf? Today the term British isles is no more than an archaic colonial era "geographical" term which has no relevance today and belongs in the dustbin of history
The earliest known use of the phrase Brytish Iles in the English language is dated 1577 in a work by John Dee, who used it to promote the colonisation of Ireland. Dee also the same individual who came up with the term the "British Empire"
It's really little wonder that Wikipedia is considered a totally unreliable source of information, when articles like this try to legitimise bs colonial era "geographical" terminology 31.187.2.224 (talk) 10:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously? Are you unable to recognise the difference between geography and politics? We use the terms that are in common use, not a desired political motivated wish. The Bannertalk10:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And are seriously unable to comprehend that it's by definition an archaic geopolitical term, first used in the English language by a noted Elizabethan propagandist who advocated for the colonisation of Ireland. Or indeed that the term today has no official standing and when used online or otherwise can be invariably be traced back to British and or Anglophile sources regardless of where it turns up. The only political shenanigans are those who continue to insist otherwise. Time Wikipedia woke up to the overt politicised machinations of some of it's editors 31.187.2.87 (talk) 14:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
an archaic geopolitical term. Thank you, but we are talking here about geography, not politics or geopolitics. The term is not archaic but in common use. And yes, there is discussion about the term but we follow the sources. We do not invent or promote other names. We just follow the sources. Only when the common name of the archipelago changes, the article will reflect that. The Bannertalk14:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As detailed the term is certainly not simply geographical,but is as detailed an archaic colonial era geopolitical term. A word btw which means the combination of political and geographic factors relating to something (such as a state or particular resources) such as the first use of the term Brytish Isles by the noted Elizabethan propagandist John Dee in 1577
Btw there is no common name for the "archipelago" other than a singular archaic colonial geopolitical term which has no official standing and where found online or otherwise can be invariably be traced back to British and or Anglophile sources regardless of where it turns up
Its time the relevant Wikipedia articles reflected that and the small number of Wikipedia editors ring fencing the issue be removed from doing so 31.187.2.22 (talk) 15:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is well know that a small number of editors take offence of the term. But unfortunately, we use the common name for this geographical entity. Not someone's personal preference. The Bannertalk15:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A "common name" according to a small number of Wikipedia editors who have inexplicably been allowed to ring fence the issue for years
Incorrect. Anachronistic geopolitical terminology has no relevance to modern geography. If Wikipedia wishes to be considered a reliable source of information, then it's time that is accepted and this and other articles are updated appropriately. 109.77.57.184 (talk) 11:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not an archaic "geopolitical" term no matter how many times you repeat that phrase. It is the primary name for the archipelago and is in common use. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 21:53, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
History does indeed show it is a geopolitical term. One first used by John Dee in the English language. And used specifically to promote the colonisation of Ireland.The same John Dee who based his ideas of "British" empire on Arthurian legends. And yet we still have some trying to argue otherwise. 109.77.57.184 (talk) 11:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The earliest known use of the phrase Brytish Iles in the Englishlanguage is dated 1577 in a work by John Dee. And that based on a hillarious theory from Geoffrey of Mommouth writings that King of Arthur allegedly invaded Ireland. Prior to that some ancient Greek and Latin references to the Pretannic isles had laid buried and unused for the best part of a a millenia until one wiley Elizabethan propagandist decided that a bit of geopolitical chicanery was the order of the day in order to promote the Elizabethan colonisation of Ireland 31.187.2.87 (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's probably time to make up an FAQ that we can point to for these perennial comments, incorporating a link to the naming controversy article. Acroterion(talk)14:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's high time that the use of archaic geopolitical colonial era terminology masqueraded as being legitimate be stopped once and for all. Wikipedia as a source has become a laughing stock exactly because of this type of editing 31.187.2.22 (talk) 14:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for illustrating my point. Wikipedia's discussions of geography are not determined by Irish/British (note the distinction, relevant politically) nationalist politics, any more than they are by Japanese/Korean politics, Indo-Pakistani politics, or Iranian/Saudi politics. Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia, which will follow global usage if and when it changes. And see the edit notice at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk)15:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for missing the point altogether - where the usage of the term in Wikipedia is evidently overtly politicacised regardless of protestations by the same editors otherwise. It remains the term is an archaic colonial era geopolitical term which belongs in the dustbin of history..Time Wikipedia content reflected that reality 31.187.2.22 (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I get your point. You want Wikipedia to be a means of effecting a change in global usage. That isn't Wikipedia's purpose, and Wikipedia isn't a tool for such purposes. And read the notice at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk)15:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
o font think you do. Just as there are no wikipedia content discussing Albion as an extant geographical entity, the same should apply to the archaic colonial era term "British Isles".
The term has no official standing nor does it have any defined "global use" outside that claimed by a small number of Wikipedia editors who cite sources which the absolute majority can be traced back to British and or Anglophile sources regardless of where it turns up 31.187.2.22 (talk) 15:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want the term to be no longer used, then you have to stop its usage. Wikipedia isn't here to dictate usage or lead, we're here as an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia doesn't have a say in if it's used or not, we just deal with the reliable sources that clearly show it's being used. Once people in Ireland stop using the term (including the government (yes they use it as simple searches show), news sites and other usages) and then the rest of the world stop using it, then we'll stop using it. You need to direct your ire at the term outside of Wikipedia and then we'll reflect it, until then referencable real world usage and sourcing will prevail. Wikipedia isn't the cause here, it's purely a symptom. You need to actually stop it in the real world, then it will be stopped here. We don't get to choose if it's used, usage does that. We're not a leader in these things, we're a trailing indicator. Canterbury Tailtalk15:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong - its usage is being specifically pushed in Wikipedia by a small number of editors. Outside of that it remains an archaic colonial era geopolitical term which has no official standing and correctly belongs as a historical reference only.
There are plenty of references to similar archaic terms such as Albion and Germania which are also found in common usage on the Internet and elsewhere but are not being inexplicably being pushed as somehow relevant despite this issue being repeatedly highlighted by countless contributors and editors. It remains the terms usage exemplifies the ugly face of Wikipedia content which relies on a politicised ring fencing such as the invariable pretence that the term is solely a "geographical" term and other shenanigans
Wikipedia needs to sort this issue and not allow a tiny muber of editors to ring fence the use of such terms - exactly what is happening hers 31.187.2.22 (talk) 16:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're entitled to your beliefs. I'm not going to post again the multitude of links that show it in active use in Ireland, including within the Irish government. They're all in the archives for you to peruse at your leisure. However the term is in common use despite your denials. Canterbury Tailtalk17:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect - these are facts not "beliefs". The wikipedia archives you cite are full of the exact same ring fencing of this issue. I have already detailed that this stance is being maintained by a tiny number of editors in the face of the facts including that the "Irish government" have already made a very clear statement that the term has no official recognition or indeed that the absolute majority of occurances on various Irish government websites can be traced back to various British and or Anglophone sources from citations and other third party references
Again Wikipedia has unfortunately become a laughing stock because of overt politicised behaviour from a tiny number of editors- the same few editors who again and again trot out the same arguments, none of which stand up to even basic scrutiny.
Independent doesn't mean "agrees with you". We are all independent on this talk page. The arbitration is what you are getting. Time to drop the stick on this one. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A FAQ is a nice idea, but sadly certain people don't bother reading them. I mean, look at all the notices at the top of this page that the IP just ignored and waded in with their forum-y post about the name on the wrong talk page. WaggersTALK12:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FAQs never solve the issue, but they at least make it possible to say "read the FAQ at the top of the page" and hat the 4836th discussion. The FAQ on Talk:Nazism hasn't closed down perennial arguments that they were socialists and therefore of the Left, and people still try to argue with them, but it at least allows a quick response. Acroterion(talk)13:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True. Anything to save this talk page from being filled up with threads like this one - there's plenty of other stuff we need to address here! Anyone fancy drafting some FAQs? WaggersTALK13:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can we include in the FAQ the fact that the "irrelevant archaic colonial era terminology" of "British Isles" is used in almost 180,000 Irish web pages, and that includes over 1,000 uses in just the the past year alone? And obviously that's not including print and broadcast media... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!14:07, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not this old hoary chestnut again. Google searches have long shown not to be a reliable indicator of common usage. With searches being influenced by user preferences and other notable issues such as "Irish" web sites being populated with automated content from commercial British web sites - see the hundreds of travel websites showing that. That and issues such as book shop listing books written by mainly British authors who use the term in their book titles and other similar anglophile terminology. The same then being listed or automatically populated from reseller websites which are not based in Ireland. The other point that a website having a .ie designation, does not mean it automatically reflects Irish authorship of any material included on such sites. Wikipedia doesn't follow in this instance but rather it's an issue of an anachronistic and deeply insulting term being pushed by a tiny number of content editors. Time that changed. 109.77.57.184 (talk) 12:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
