Talk:Ceremonial clothing in Western cultures
Untitled
[edit]Note: the original title of this article was Clothes for ceremonial occasions, but it went on to talk about clothes worn by "Westerners", by which the article seems to mean people of those countries with a Christian / Jewish cultural tradition. --Ianb 05:34, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Myths and facts
[edit]Traditionally, a wedding dress was not white, and white is not the color of purity. White is the color of death and cowardice (white flag, white livered, white feather). Brides do not wear white because they are pure. The color of purity and virginity is blue (hence "something blue").
The "old jingle" (which is not THAT old - it is from the 1850s):
Something old and something new, Something borrowed and something blue
This refers to traditional wedding practices. It was most unusual to acquire a whole new dress to one's wedding. Instead one would use one's best dress ("something old"), with a new apron, shawl
etc. ("something new"), and adornments and jewelry was often borrowed since few could afford to buy it themselves ("something borrowed")
--Sparviere (talk) 19:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
(moved from my talk page)
I can see WHY you felt you had to retitle the ceremonial clothing article and change some of the text -- you seem to feel that descriptions of chistenings and church weddings imply that all Western culture follows Judeo-Christian norms, and could be considered POV.
However, the renaming distorts the rest of the article, which concerns completely non-religious events, like graduations, or debuts. All these apply/applied to anyone living in those areas, regardless of faith. If you were a Parsi living in Victorian England, your family would probably follow the dress rules of the dominant culture.
The problem MAY be the mingling of current and past practices. Or it may just be that the ceremonial clothing article didn't pay enough attention to non-Judeo-Christian faiths. Though I'm at a loss how to deal with that, since there are so darn MANY of them now, and they're usually in the middle of a transition from mother-country mores to Westernized versions. Like Hindu weddings in the US, which cover a whole spectrum from "as-traditional-as-possible" to "we'll have the fire and the priests and the wedding sari and jewelry, but the rest will be Western".
BTW, I speak as someone who's been a Buddhist in a predominantly Judeo-Christian society for forty years. I'm not assuming that the Judeo-Christian tradition is the only thing there is. I'm looking at it from the outside.
Perhaps we can divide the article into secular and religous occasions, if possible? Zora 09:43, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Reply: my main problem was that the article was general ("Ceremonial clothing"), but talks about it in an exclusively "Western" context, ignoring ceremonial dress in the rest of the world. To be honest I can't think of a better title; I agree the article needs breaking up and put in a more systematic context. As it also mixes historical and class practices (I hardly imagine babies in the Victorian working classes had any form of dress which could be considererd ceremonial). --Ianb 10:01, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ah, that's the problem then. It's the title. The article was INTENDED to be restricted to "standard Western" western clothing, as it was an expansion of a stub from the clothing article, where the Western tradition is contrasted to other "local" traditions. We have a clothing tradition that's rooted in a few countries, but is now influential world-wide.
But if all that wasn't clear to you, then it wasn't clear and needs to be fixed. Thanks for the insight. Zora 17:49, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've always heard it said that it is unlucky for a non-virgin bride to wear white on her wedding day, much like the groom seeing the bride before the ceremony and similar wedding superstitions.75.42.157.122 (talk) 20:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
I think I'm groping towards an answer
[edit]The article as it stands is like a laundry list of clothing, mixed with miscellaneous historical facts. Praps it could be broken up into categories like Western academic ceremonial clothing, Western markers of age and status with clothing, things like that. I'll work on it when I have time. If anyone has any better ideas, please contribute! Zora 10:25, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Why "Judeo-Christian Cultures"?
[edit]The term itself is a post WWII neologism, and in any event it's entirely about ceremonial clothing in Christian cultures. Jayjg 15:52, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- feel free to come up with a better term, it was all I can think of. --Ianb 19:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- How about Western Cultures? Jayjg 22:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Yah, well, that was what I originally intended. I titled the article badly. If it's going to be Western cultures, it needs more info. I'm VERY good on Victorian England and the Christians therein (all varieties) and somewhat hazy on other stuff.
- But it might work better to break it down into categories, like academic clothing, rite of passage clothing, or suchlike. Zora 23:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- So why don't we move it to fix the problem, and then more info can be added to it. Jayjg 21:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I started the poor deformed little article and I agree that it should be moved to Ceremonial clothing in Western culture. I'll work on it when I have time. Zora 22:10, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)