User talk:TriNotch

This is my talk page.

One of the things my talk page is notable for is the (accidental) hosting of a debate about excavations at Monk's Mound at Cahokia Mounds in August 2007. Rather than leaving that debate on the talk page in its original form, I have archived it here.

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- Graham ☺ | Talk 03:04, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Devine Direction Theory

TriNotch, thank you for your professionalism, I appreciate the suggestion.

Mississippian

Hello. Welcome to Wikipedia. Your contributions are welcome. In the future, instead of creating a whole separate article, it is good to add to existing articles. :) One can move articles if you feel the title is inappropriate. Right now Mississippian culture and Mississippian civilization probably should be merged into one article. -- Decumanus 04:50, 2004 Dec 15 (UTC)

I added a number of links to the Mississippian culture article. I was going to link to mound until I noticed that it redirects to barrow and only discusses British types. We also have no articles on mound building, mound builder, mound building culture, mound building civiliation. Perhaps you could add to these areas. Rmhermen 04:55, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

Native American Prehistory

Hi! I've been working on archaeological cultures, sites and artifacts in the American southwest for the past few months. I have plans to create a Prehistoric America structure or tree dealing with various cultural aspects. Big job. But, to start with, I've put a list of cultures in Native American pottery. If you have clay/pottery info from the southeast, it would be very welcome. Look forward to working with you. WBardwin 21:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I probably should have written back on this sooner, but I will definitely contribute as soon as I can. I took a look, and made a couple of very minor edits in some areas, but it does look like more is needed. I'll get back to it when I get a chance. TriNotch 01:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Archaeology and the Book of Mormon

Thanks for being respectful. I've responded to your note at Archaeology and the Book of Mormon. Let me know if you are interested in the Cahokia pics. May take a while to dig them up and scan them in... -Visorstuff 20:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Respectful archaeology is what I'm all about. I'm definitely interested in the Cahokia pics, but take your time. I'm glad my edits could help. TriNotch 01:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Metallurgy

Thanks for following up on Hopewell culture. I wanted to remove the reference to metallurgy altogether but couldn't spare the research (I have an exam on Eastern North American archaeology in 20 minutes :) silsor 16:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Which I did well in ... silsor 20:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, I just took a similar exam this afternoon. I also did well. TriNotch 21:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Native American cultures

I recently started a list article (List of archaeological cultures in North America) but I can't say I am satisfied with the organization of the list. I am less worried about the incompleteness as I mostly just linked to pre-existing Wikipedia articles. Any ideas on how to do this better? Any major things missing? Rmhermen 16:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You recently changed the dates of early Woodland and middle Woodland in this article. I reverted these changes to keep it in line with the Woodland period article. Possibly that article is incorrect? Rmhermen 22:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it is both right and wrong. The 0 AD or 300 BC limit is purely arbitrary, and depends on the adoption of particular traits in particular areas. Most researchers generalize the time periods as 1000-0, 0-500, and 500-1000 for convenience- but the Woodland period article correctly identifies the Middle Woodland Hopewell culture as starting before that, so... Its a grey area. I prefer 0 AD for general description and specific centuries for particular cultures, like the Hopewell or Swift Creek (200 BC and 100 AD respectively). I may go change the dates in both articles again. TriNotch 22:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi TriNotch,

Thanks for the welcome (you posted on my userpage).

I just discovered that somebody has been messing with the Lenape page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenape). I'm not sure how to go about fixing it or I would do it myself. Also not sure this is the best way to send you a message, as I'm a Wikipedia newbie and unsure about the various rules of ettiquette, etc.

Thanks, Doppelbock 16:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TriNotch, thanks for the feedback you posted on my user page -- glad to see I wasn't violating etiquette ;-). I am really just a layman who is interested in the Adena, Hopewell and their descendants; I don't really have much to contribute here. I live in Ohio, just a few miles from the Miamisburg mound, and have become fascinated with pre-Columbus Native American cultures. Really I'm just surfing around here trying to find if anybody knows who the descendants of the Hopewell are. I'm starting to think that it's all so mixed up, what with intermarraiges and taking of captives and whatnot, that probably everybody is related to everybody else!

Thanks, Doppelbock 11:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, thanks for the info, especially the books you suggested! If you don't mind answering just one more dumb question, since I gather you are very knowledgable regarding Cahokia -- I have come across two different versions of how the Lenape originally migrated to the Delaware River area. One version (I believe the Lenape's own tribal history) has it that the Lenape migrated from the west, encountered the "Allegewi" at Cahokia, defeated them with the help of the Iroquois, then journeyed on eastward. (I recall one source saying this happened around 1300 A.D.) Another version has it that the Lenape actually came not from the west, but from north of Lake Superior, and encountered the "Allegewi" at the Detroit River. This latter version seems to be more commonly accepted. Do you have any insight into this? Thanks for all the help! Doppelbock 18:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad my dumb question prompted something useful! Here is one link that might prove helpful (though I'm not sure what the pedigree of this information is): http://www.daytonhistorybooks.citymax.com/page/page/2651180.htm. I really haven't been able to find anything recent and authoritative on this subject. I'd also be interested to know if you have any insight into who the Allegewi/Tallegewi might have been. (Some references indicate they may have been predecessors to the Cherokee.) Thanks! Doppelbock 12:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Walum Olum/ Walam Olum

You mentioned "textual evidence" that the Walam Olum was a hoax, but I am not sure what the evidence was. Moreover, this debunking appears to be relatively new and carried on by a few authors. Shouldn't we take said debunking with a grain of salt? — Rickyrab | Talk 04:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to know what the textual evidence was. Marburg72 20:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jade/Greenstone

Hi TriNotch; thanks for the props! Saw your bit on greenstone:

New Zealand greenstone, which is geologically jade, and other greenstone, which is distinctly not jade. There is also no section on Native American greenstone use.

and did a double-take, as jade/greenstone plays a big role in BC history and also to some degree (though not as much as you'd expect) in native cultures here; world's largest deposit of nephrite and all that. Not sure what sources I can dig up for you on NW Coast/Plateau jade use but I'll try; it had a famous role in the gold rushes of '58-'66 as the Chinese crated up "black rocks" and shipped them to China without explanation; apparently a lot of the jade carvings you might be on import from China are made from BC jade, either bought/exported during the last hundred and fifty odd years, or possibly traded tribe-to-tribe into China over the centuries (no one's sure). Anyway, I'm not sure jade was ever of much utility around here because of the presence of more useful stones (argillite, obsidian - nephrite shatters easily, as you may know, unlike jadeite as used in Mexican technology).Skookum1 16:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America Newsletter - July '06

The Indigenous Peoples of North America Portal
The Indigenous Peoples of North America Portal has been established, as a starting point for those wishing to learn more about the subject, with information and links on a wide variety of issues. It also contains news regarding the continent's various tribes and nations. It's a graphically pleasing site, and everyone is encouraged to check it out.
Home Page Reorganization
The project's home page has a new design, featuring tabbed subpages on participants, templates, articles, categories, and the to do list.
Article Classification Move
The Article Classification lists have been moved to their own subpage due to size. This is a sign of progress in the ongoing work of this project.
New Talk Page Template
The project's talk page template has been updated, along with the classification system, to include the assessment on the talk pages of the articles that have been classified and assessed.

Balance
As the Project reaches its first six months of activity, the great effort all of you have invested in it has turned the vast information available on Indigenous North American topics from a deorganized cumulous into an excellent and easy to consult database. Although much work is still in order, few WikiProjects are able to obtain the amazing results we are proud to show today. To all of you, thank you and congratulations!
What You Can Do to Help
The assessment of articles within the scope of the project is still an ongoing process. We need people to help in this who are not contributors to the articles they are assessing. Also, there is the ongoing need for identifying and cataloguing articles that fall within the scope of this project. As of today, nearly 1,500 have been identified within the Project's scope.
Signed by
Aaron Walden & Phaedriel - 15:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Synchronic

Thank you for providing links to synchronic. But I notice that you used external links. It seems to me it is easier and more attractive to use inter-wiki links as in this change. --teb728 00:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion of Template:User mvs

A tag has been placed on Template:User mvs requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a deprecated or orphaned template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

If the template is intended to be substituted, please feel free to remove the speedy deletion tag and please consider putting a note on the template's page indicating that it is substituted so as to avoid any future mistakes (<noinclude>{{transclusionless}}</noinclude>).

Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

laughable

you compare the minoans with the missisippian culture , if we accepted your date 2000 bc you realize 2000 b.c happend before 800 a.d so tell me did that culture have the knowledge of the wheel which is as basic as fire,so in doing so you make your arguement look small and pathetic.I think i have found the first case of native american centric face it friend the native north americans were no different from sub sahran africans--Wikiscribe (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cahokia

Hey there TriNotch, thanks for pointing out my silly misreading of the statement about the Grand Plaza. However, I have once again replaced the uncited statement with a simple measurement, because I looked pretty far and pretty wide for anything saying that Grand Plaza was "largest" and couldn't find anything. So, maybe we can leave the statement out until it's cited? Murderbike (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I have not doubt it is, I just hate seeing those annoying "citation needed" tags lying around articles. Cheers! Murderbike (talk) 04:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, so I was looking at your userpage, and I really like your attitude about archaeology. I just started working on an article about the Marmes Rockshelter in my user space, and thought you might be a good person to get a little guidance from on it, since I'm way more in to regular ol history than archaeology. The only real question I have, is whether or not I should refer to the site in the present or past tense. But any other opinions about my progress would be more than welcome. Murderbike (talk) 08:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for the contributions, and compliments! Don't worry about the userspace thing, I very much feel like if somebody does something inappropriate, it can be undone. I definitely don't want to own articles, so contributions from others (especially those with more expertise than myself!) is always welcome. I'll probably take the article live here in a second, and add a little more info as I plow through the several books I got on the subject. Cheers! Murderbike (talk) 20:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You probably deserved this a while ago.

		The Editor's Barnstar
		Most recently, you get this for your bold slashing of deadwood from Civilization. But hopefully, the star also acknowledges your long history of editing with discretion and, rarer still, expertise. Fishal (talk) 07:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Civilization

Heh-- if you want to talk about procrastination, that civilization draft has more or less been collecting virtual dust since last September, when an online collaborative fiction network replaced Wikipedia as my main online diversion. I'm easing my way back into the swing of things right now, and I hope we can make real changes to that article, seeing as how it's a core topic and all. I have to say I'm surprised that that was your first star-- you actually work in the field you write about, and it shows. Fishal (talk) 20:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Crystalinks

Hi TriNotch. Re those apparent copyvios you've tagged for Maya architecture and Maya art- indeed both of these are original wikipedia articles, having been associated with them for some time now, and are not taken from that crystalinks site. In fact, whoever's behind crystalinks would appear to be either a long-term plagiarist, or at least ignorant (wilfully?) of copyrights and licensing. I've several times found passages I know I've written or contributed to appearing on their site (they have a couple dozen pages on Mesoamerican as well as esoteric topics), and as far as I can tell every page there is cobbled together from somewhere else- mainly wikipedia, but also other sources. Sometimes they interweave passages taken from wikipedia with other material, but I feel sure they aren't writing anything original themselves. A lot of their pics seem to be lifted from other sources, eg Nat. Geographic, and although there's a simple mention of NG I doubt they have permission.

Actually, if you look closely you can see a tiny, tiny one-word hyperlink back to a corresponding wikipedia article- in my book that doesn't satisfy GDFL requirements.

Re whether they should be pinged for these apparent violations- yes, and I believe they have been reported- see Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Abc#Crystalinks.com. Also listed as "low/none compliance" at WP:GFDLC. It seems a GFDL violation letter or two has been sent, with unsatisfactory results thus far. I guess they could be taken further through the non compliance process, and be issued with sterner warnings if someone has the time to do it (though probably better for someone in the same jurisdiction to do this).

Regards, --cjllw ʘ TALK 07:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ling.Nut/Funerary art

Hi TriNotch, nice to meet you...User:CJLL Wright thought yu might be a good person to ask for help on the "Americas" section of User:Ling.Nut/Funerary art... interested? Thanks! Ling.Nut (talk) 14:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hopewell

There's a recent change of dates in the Hopewell article. I suspect it's vandalism - but it could also be a minor true correction. Can You check? Kdammers (talk) 04:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Working on a map

I recently made a map for the Mississippian culture period, and thought since I already had a blank map, I could just add the Hopewell Interaction spere over it and make one for there too. And then as I began to work on it, I thought, why don't I add the associated local expressions of Hopewell over the main image. Swift Creek, Crab Orchard( I think they were hopewell, in southern Illinois?), Marksville, etc. Only it's hard to find a good graphic of each of the individual local expressions. I don't want to add it till I get it at least close to accurate. All of the purple blobs are still pretty loose, would love to tighten them up a little. I'll post my progress here as an example. So if you have what I need, or could point me in the right direction, leave me a note on my talk page. PS, "I believe the taxpayers of the United States (and the rest of the world) fund archaeology ONLY BECAUSE IT IS INTERESTING", definitely agree, even tho I'm not an archaeologist, so I'm also doing my part to spread the word and the love of archaeo and history, cheers!Heironymous Rowe (talk) 07:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I worked with a few other people who had suggestions for the Hopewell map, and for the Oneota on the Mississippian culture map. I've still got the original unflattened versions, so I can still redraw the areas if you notice any thing that definitely needs correcting. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Walam Olum

I think the article is improved, more work to be done I'm sure. You might want to read the history (including the edit summaries) as well as the article and talk pages Doug Weller (talk) 10:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Red Horn (legend)

Would you mind taking a look at Red Horn (legend)? There is an editor making POV editions, original research, conflict of interest, etc. He wont respond on the talk page, he just keeps reverting everything I do to maintain the neutrality of the article. I'd just like a second opinion, and maybe some advice/help dealing with it. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 04:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for going and checking out the situation. I've personally begun avoiding userdiete003. Apart from his attitude, name calling, and refusal to have a dialogue here, I got a snippy email from him too. I'd been controlling my irritation fairly well up til then, but have decided to pull back for awhile and let more experienced and leveler heads deal with him. I hope you don't mind and feel like I've dumped him at your figurative doorstep, I just don't know if I could keep being civil to the gentleman. Hope you have better luck with him than I did and thanks again! Heironymous Rowe (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Culture

Hi, I am here to solicit your help. As of a week ago, the culture article was just a total trainwreck. There was a GA and it elicited many reasonable criticisms. I recently did a major revision of the article, although my approach was conservative: I deleted redundancies, deleted fringe and tangential material, and reorganized what was left in an attempt to highlight distinct approaches and points of view. I explain all this in more detail on the talk page starting here (note: the two people who did the GA think my revision is bad and the earlier version should be restored). I admit that my revision has big holes, and i am hoping other editors can help fill them in.

A major hole involves material culture:

what do we know about the evolution of tool-use?
what is the relationship between material culture and symbolic or mental culture?
how do archeologists conceptualize culture? What are the main debates today among archeologists over how to define and study culture?

I do not want to duplicate the archeology article ... I think Culture should be about "culture" and the different views and approaches to conceptualizing and studying culture. But clearly, archeology should be represented in this.

I know everyone has other things to work on - any edits you can make would be valuable, I am sure. You may also have suggestions about the organization of the article (e.g. should we have separate sections on cultural anthropology and archeology? or should we have separate sections on Taylor's categories, non-material culture, behavioral culture, and material artefacts of the preceding two? Or something else?

Anyway, I appreciate any help you can give! Slrubenstein | Talk 16:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Brassica rupestris

Please don't be afraid to reject articles such as Brassica rupestris. Look at all the changes I had to make to remove gobs of confusion and misinformation. The article contradicted itself, and was sourced to mirrors of Wikipedia. Let me or the others editors at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants know if anybody is trying to get an article on a plant moved into mainspace, and we'll try to patch it up at least. Abductive (reasoning) 10:21, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the offer. Some of my other novice editors may be making plant contributions so I will direct them there or point out their work there myself. Thanks for editing their draft. TriNotch (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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